Prepared by Jim Snowdon Originator Bob Alderman

1. Bob Alderman, Aug 16, 2017
I have one of these locos I am looking at for a friend.
It may be a CCW whitemetal loco, there is a lot of metal around the cab so it is heavy at that end. It has a new chassis. The driving wheels are currently fixed and the trailing wheels are free to move vertically but restrained by an adjustable central pivot.
The motor is on the second axle.
It runs sweetly on a rolling road but on the track it runs but has no tractive effort. Rice pudding and skin!
I need some suggestions from your collective experience how the chassis can be rebuilt to get better weight distribution so that it pull at least a Lionheart B set.
Some form of compensation comes to my mind, but the best arrangement?

Bob

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2. Jim Snowdon, Aug 16, 2017
Bob,

I would suggest putting the two driving axles on beams, and the trailing axle on a centre point (which sounds close to what you have already, just minus the spring). The alternative is to put it on sprung hornblocks all round.

Jim

3. Thomas Heller, Aug 16, 2017
Bob,

would there be enough space in the smokebox for some kind of a counterweight?

To be honest, I doesn't exactly know the CCW model, but from my point of view the chassis works like a seesaw. Maybe it would work if you try to weigh out the model in a way, so that it stands only on the driving wheels with unmounted trailing wheels?

Thomas

4. Brian Goodhew, Aug 16, 2017
Bob,
If it runs OK on a rolling road does this support the trailing wheels at the same level as the drivers, or are they unsupported? I'm thinking that if only the drivers are on the rolling road then on the track the rear trailing wheels may actually lift the rear drivers off the track slightly. That would mean that the adjustable central pivot needs raising so that the training wheels are not taking much weight. You could try removing the trailing wheels and see where the point of balance is. If it's behind the rear drivers then all you can do is add weight at the front.
Brian

5. Morgan17782, Aug 16, 2017
Hi Bob
Is the motor/GB the usual way, above and behind the axle? Depending on the motor size could it be in front of the axle and vertical or moved to the front axle. Either would reduce the rear overhang weight. Regards

Allen Morgan

6. Pat Buckley, Aug 16, 2017
Thomas and Brian have good points Bob, Many years ago I has a similar problem with a 00 one and never did manage to cure it. One thing that has occurred to me is what is the motor that’s in it if its a very old and very tired one that may also be the problem it may not need a ABC with a maxon in it just something more modern and with a proper modern gearbox in it with the weight in the front end so it sits just on the drivers as Thomas suggests then let the rear axle just come along for the ride. My LNER G5 from a connoisseur kit was built like that with all the weight at the front end and that despite being a 0-4-4 would pull anything even with only a mashima in it.

Pat.

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7. Simon Dobson, Aug 16, 2017
Bob

I'm guessing it's a Springside, and there's a sort of concentric cylinder assembly containing the spring, pressing on the trailing axle.

Been there, done that. It's a (bad) joke, particularly given the size & weight of the cab & bunker.

I wrote online about mine some years back, I adopted the first suggestion that Jim makes above - equalising beams between the two drive axles, and a rigid central bearing on the trailing axle to provide 3-point compensation.

This is quick, cheap & easy, allowing use of current motor & gearbox, axles, bearings & wheels, assuming they are ok.
The motor will require a torque link to prevent it rotating around the axle, but allowing the axle to float. The frames will require limited filing of the axle holes to permit the axles to float up & down maybe 1mm in each direction.
You can use the frames or coupling rods as a jig to drill the rocking beams, then enlarge the holes to suit the bearings. You'll need to drill a pivot hole in both beams & frames on, or somewhere near the mid-line between the axle holes.
I soldered the beams to the bearings, thus trapping everything, the pivot was a piece of brass wire soldered to one frame.

Hth
Simon

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8. Stephen Freeman, Aug 16, 2017
I don't think springing is the way to go on this one Bob. I too have a 48xx 0-4-2T, which started life as a CCW kit, added overlays for rivet and panel detail, plus lots of Springside detailing parts. Chassis is a Slaters, sprung job, motor/ gears are JH. Whilst it runs smoothly enough and has a top speed that would put the Bullet train to shame, anything more that a couple of kit built coaches and it starts to polish the rails. In 4mm the way to go was indeed compensated and have two such examples, one in P4 and one in 16.5mm.

Stephen

9. Bob Alderman, Aug 16, 2017
Thanks All.
What has been suggested by way of compensation seems to be the way to go. It is the same as my 2P, excepting four rather then two wheels, and that goes with at least six, haven't tried more, etched kit coaches. I forgot to say it is DCC sound fitted with the speaker in the smokebox. No desire to displace it with lead.
Bob

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10. Chris Simpson, Aug 20, 2017
Hi Bob, I have a Springside 14XX, built as designed. I normally only pull my Auto coach, but I thought I'd try to see what it is capable of. On the level it will happily pull a rake of 6 Lima coaches (possibly more but I haven't any more), but on an incline, considerably less. There is an incline from my garden line into the shed, and it will pull 3 coaches up that, but there is wheelslip with 4. Lima coaches are not particularly heavy, but I'm happy with the result.
Chris

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11. Langton17365, Aug 22, 2017
I'm contemplating a 14xx myself at the moment and have a Meridian kit waiting. My problem is not just traction but rather tight curves (2ft radius) on what is pretty much a micro-layout. My current thinking is to build the thing as virtually a 'single Fairlie' albeit of course not the usual 0-4-4…. That is, the driving wheels will be mounted as a four-wheel bogie, the trailing axle rigid in the frames with no significant sideplay. Because of said curves mine will be a bit complex and idiosyncratic, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to follow it in detail, but on more normal curves I'd have thought it possible to have such a bogie arrangement without too much difficulty and not very obvious what's 'really' going on. The tricky part will be ensuring that the sideplay of the wheels doesn't cause short circuits on the frames.

I do expect reasonable weight distribution as a lot of that rear weight should effectively bear on the bogie pivot and be fairly equally spread to the four drivers.

Any comments…?

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12. Healey Pearce (BrushType4), Aug 22, 2017
Isn't it a 0-4-2? I'd have thought that it would do 2foot curves with widening without the need of a bogie arrangement.

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13. Jim Snowdon, Aug 22, 2017

I would concur. Doing some quick CAD plots, and assuming 32mm gauge, putting +/-0.5mm sideplay on both drivers and +/-1.0 on the trailing axle, the minimum radius would be 646mm - not quite 2 feet (610mm), but close.

With the gauge widened to 33mm, zero sideplay on the two driving axles and +/-0.75 on trailing axle, the minimum radius would be 613mm.

The same result can be obtained for 32.5mm gauge with +/-0.5mm sideplay on the leading driver and +/-1.25mm on the trailing axle.

All of these take into account the fact that with fine standard wheels, the gauge of the wheelset is 31.0mm or less, so that there is already +/-0.5mm sideplay built into 32mm gauge track before you do anything on the loco.

Jim

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14. Ian Zeal, Aug 23, 2017
My first of twenty or so engines built from kits was a Scorpio 14xx. This does not appear above and was for me an excellent kit. It has beam compensation on the rear driver and trailing wheels and used to run on my outdoor railway, complete with uneven track etc! Puling power with a Mashima horizontally slung in the chassis between rear driver and trailing wheels and I think a 40-1 gearing is very satisfactory with a scale top speed of about 40mph and like others about 7 coaches or 30 wagons. It was this engine that converted me to gauge 0! Next engine was a Scorpio Saint with a Portescap HS. The engine also has beam compensation as provided by the kit and is a lovely runner with an 8 coach Westdale rake at a scale 80 mph. Now about 20 years old it is due for new bearings as the are getting 'rather sloppy' -a bit like me!

My current railway is indoors which in rainy Okehampton is a decided advantage.

Ian