From the forum 2017 - originally by Rob Pulham

Note there are many more photos on this forum thread, to view them all, see original thread

Rob Pulham - On the old forum I built a couple of Ian Kirk's 51 1/2' non corridor brakes. Don Gillam bought one of them from me and he's asked me to build him a couple more to go with them.

One of them is a 52' Gangwayed brake and the second is a 511/2' non corridor all third. So far I have made up the BG sides and a prepared a few of the underframe details but I haven't any decent photos of progress yet.

I have also cut out and cleaned up all the parts for the sides of the all third. I still need to remove the door T handles before gluing them because it will be so much easier than trying to do it when maneuvering a whole side. The moulded T handles will be replaced with some brass alternatives

RobPulham - Although still recovering I managed to get more done on the Kirk BG last weekend.

There was a small moulding fault on one of the sections so I elected to use it in the side that I was cutting out for the ducket. The ducket itself is one of my Silhouette cut examples Oddly I needed to cut a couple of different sizes because the ones that I had left from the last build were slightly small in the hole.

There was another issue with the solebars for the kit which were all twisted as they came. An email from Don to Ian Kirk had some replacements in the post next day. I had already stuck the sides together so it wasn't worth asking Ian to replace the section with the moulding fault. I just cut the section out squarely and let in a piece of styrene rod. Once dry I filed it to shape (much like they would have repaired damage to a coach in service). - I must take this opportunity to commend Ian for his prompt service. Three weeks ago I had added the base plates for the bump stops, I added the bump stops themselves on Saturday. After leaving them over night to set I filed them to uniform length using a scrap of 10 thou styrene with a hole in it. I also add the upper hinges but I will leave the lower ones until later because they are a bit vulnerable. I also worked on detailing the ends - I like to build up as many sub assemblies as I can before putting it together. First I made a couple of door knobs from some styrene rod. Then I added them to the doors in the ends along with lamp irons and lighting connectors. I used my ever handy lense tissue to make the canvas tops for the corridor connections. And finally I detailed up the Dynamos. These are a bit plain as they come and I had initially stuck a H section stem but seeing a 1/32 scratch build of a Pullman coach over on RMweb shamed me into doing something better. - I still need to make the mounting brackets yet. I forgot to add a photo of the canvas cover

Further work ensued on the BG this weekend and it's now starting to look coach like. Ignore the bogies, they were to hand so I used them to prop the coach on for the photos

In between I made up the battery boxes for the all 3rd. Work progressed over the weekend with much of the available time being spent on fitting the roof which is now almost there. It's the first one of Ian's bow ended roofs that I have tackled and I am sure another would be much easier. In between sessions on the roof I attached the battery box and prepared the V hangers for the vacuum cylinders. Not many words and not much to show visually either.
What is worth sharing visually, is that I did more work to one of the dynamos.
Starting from this, if you will forgive the repeat of an earlier photo.
And using this as my working example (this is one of the very nice Sidelines castings). I arrived at this. I am so pleased with the result that I plan to gently prise the dynamo off the parcels coach that I am building for myself which just needs final details and painting and modifying it to the same spec.

Last night I only had a little time at the bench and got completely distracted from the brake van by thoughts on vacuum tanks for the all third. I recently managed to get some really good underfloor detail photos from an LNER 3 compartment first at Stainmore railway. which included good shots of vacuum tanks and cylinders - They are on my Flickr site should anyone need them
This is where I got to, they still need much cleaning up and for the legs to be straightened/cut to length and I plan to solder them to some scrap brass plate to give an area to glue to.

A few days off has enabled further progress with the coach builds.
The roof for the BG is now complete. The sides for the all third have had their T handles carved off and all parts are now joined together to make each side. More work has ensued on the underframe of the BG but I haven't taken any photos yet - hopefully tomorrow.

Pat Buckley - Rob, that roof looks a bit too dark to me unless it's the light.I allways use GWR freight grey for my Kirk or in fact any coach roofs based on a colour photo of an L1 tank with a rake of thompson stock in the late 50s.the roof colour was a dead ringer for the freight grey.And of course a touch of weathering powder rubbed in with a cotton bud makes variations between roofs possible in a rake.
Pat.

Rob,further to my above post I have just looked at my book by Brian Haresnape entitled Railway Liveries -BR Steam 1948-1968.and the three pictures that show what I mean are page 29 at Liverpool St, page 36 at Darlington and page 49 at Birmingham New Street. I cannt find the photo that I mentioned in the previous post but the photo at Darlington of the V3 and thompson stock is a dead ringer for that.I don't know if you have this book it's nearly 30 years old and I have a feeling it's long out of print but it may be possible to find a copy on eBay or amazon or maybe a specialist book seller.Keep up the good work and post some more photos !
Pat.

RobPulham - Hi Pat, Sorry, I forgot to mention that the roof is only in primer at the minute. It will be finished in Medium Sea Grey but I find that priming in a darker colour allows you to create a weathered effect particularly on roofs without really trying by just varying the amount of top coat that you put on. I have the earlier period Haresnape Liveries Book - 1923-1947 which is primarily the period that I model. I only do BR for other people or to sell.

The promised underframe shots. The observant will note that I managed to break of the tensioner… Pat Buckley - Rob, where did you get the turnbuckles for the trusses from or are they home made ? If they are home made can you show or tell how you did it.All my kirk coaches have angle iron trusses but i would like to do one or two with the ones like yours.The LNER changed to angle trusses in 1929 -i think -but there would have been hundreds built with the older ones and i would like a bit of variation ! EDM who do lots of bits and pieces do turnbuckles but i keep forgetting to have a look at their stand at shows to see if they are any good. I have another six Gresley corridors and two diag 167 buffets and two more Thompson mainlines to do but the Gresleys need doing first so i had better pull my finger out.
Pat.

RobPulham - Hi Pat,
Those particular ones are from Just Like The Real Thing - the queen posts are too (that's despite making the original one that I fitted with the silhouette) the casting comes with 4 posts but I cut out the centre two because all the LNER stock shorter than 57 foot only had two queen posts not four.

I do have some other Turnbuckle castings that I got from Geoff Stratford (formerly Gladiator) who I believe retained them in his range.

paul copsey - Slaters have turnbuckles and also Hobby Holidays .
Cheers
Paul

RobPulham - Thanks Paul,
I wasn't aware of those - although having a part built Slaters MR coach in the drawer I ought to have twigged that they at least did them DOH!

This weekend saw the bogies completed and primed. I had initially struggled to work out how to get the ABS Cavalier bogies together and an email to Adrian had him suggesting the addition of bit's of welding rod to strengthen them. Having discussed the matter with Don we agreed that if I couldn't get them together then I would use the Kirk bogies supplied instead.
Lo and behold when I looked again at them yesterday morning it all became clear and they were assembled in no time. There was minimal flash and I just had to file the ends of the bogie sides where they fit into the ends ever so slightly to remove a gap.
On the Newbold bogies shown mostly complete earlier I adjusted the springs that I had wrong to sit under the spring stops, then added the bolsters and the brakes. Both sets had a good wash and then a squirt with primer. I will leave this until next week to harden completely before putting on the top coat of black. Newbold 8' on the left, ABS/Cavalier 8'6“ on the right. Newbold 8' ABS/Cavalier 8'6” - and of course I see from the photos that I need to add some handles to the axle box fronts… Pat Buckley - Rob,have you any photos of the Newbold bogie build.I have a complete Newbold kit for a diag 167 Gresley Buffet car and the bogie instructions are on a cd disc.A few photos would help a lot that i can download and save for the build.Thanks in advance.
Pat.

RobPulham - Me too, I am looking forward to it. - You did a bit better than me I didn't get any instructions with mine Sadly it looks like I only. took one photo as they were almost complete. I do have some instructions for the bogies that I could scan and email to you if that would help although most of the construction made sense the only bit I didn't get initially was the description of how to fit the spring stops and email to Peter Dobson brought me the last three photos below and this description which I am sure that Peter won't mind me sharing with you - [I]“The long end is intended to be bent at 90 degrees and is placed through the hole in the side and soldered in place before the ends are filed flat so that the outer part of the side can be bent up. Similarly to filing down the tags from the bearing brackets.
The end was left long _ maybe a bit too long - to make it a little easier to fit - for those who are challenged in the dexterity stakes.
The short end is then bent also at 90 degrees so that it faces inwards. ie Bend lines are on the inside. These represent the spring stops.”[/I]

PeteJ - Hi Rob,
Great thread of specific interest to me. With regard to the comment you make about advice from Adrian re strengthening Cavalier bogies with welding rod, was this to do with cast white metal bogies sagging off over a period of time under load?
If so, what action did Adrian suggest so it can be assessed in relation to other white metal bogies brands? Does anyone else suffer this problem and how have they overcome it?
Also, Ian Kirk suggests a way of compensating Kirk bogies with a rocking brass internal side frame. I have done this on several coaches but have seen many built without. Is it necessary provided lugs are placed on top of the bogie frame on one set to stop rocking, leaving the other bogie free?
Keep up the good work, Rob.
Cheers, PeteJ

RobPulham - Hi Pete,
Yes that was it, although to be fair Just Like the Real Thing also use cast bogies and a few other suppliers use cast bogies and I have never heard of them sagging. Especially when used under Kirk coaches. I must confess I didn't really understand what Adrian was suggesting. I will send you a message with the relevant bit of his email in case you can make sense of it. Regarding Kirk bogies I have seen lots in use and I have never heard of anyone using a rocking brass frame on them. To my mind the thing that Ian's bogies lack is the finer details like brakes etc. I haven't heard anyone ever complain about poor running with them either.

Pat Buckley - PeteJ,I have built an awfull lot of Ians wonderfull kits and in the early days used the compensated bogie system on all of them with succes.However after i sold most of my stock and had to start again i stopped going down the compensation road and devised a simpler system - mostly because of the time taken to make the bits.All my Kirk bogies pivot on 4ba bolts araldited to the coach floors the bogie is held on with a nyloc nut that is tightened just enough to let the bogie rock a bit but not loose enough to let the coach body rock while being pulled.Its a bit trial and error getting the individual bogies set up by doing up or undoing the nyloc a fraction at a time but once done the never alter.I have made three articulated twin sets up from the kirk kits as well as all my normal coaches and the twin sets all together are a fairly heavy load and they run very sweetly over all the test tracks i normally use as i have no layout.As an aside my quintruplet set has full compensated bogies and i can detect no difference between it and of the rest of my stock so they must be okay as i never get derails or any problems with Points.
Pat.

Jim Snowdon - I don't have first hand experience, but it's not the first time I have come across references to the Cavalier bogies being on the weak side.
Jim

PeteJ - Hi Rob, Pat, Jim,
Rob, thanks for the private email, explains the need and way well enough. The rocking brass side compensation beams are suggested in Ian's instructions.
There are many cast bogie sets available JLTRT (Chowbent), believed now Premier components, CCW the worst for sagging, Cavalier, as described and all have collapsed to varying degrees on me, particularly under Westdale and other metal types. If kept in boxes, ensure the roof is not in contact with the lid!
Rob, a good point about weight of Kirks, but even they gain significantly with full seating, even plastic. When will someone come up with a cheap, fine, lightweight seating product, or is it already out there? Pat, I agree re the Kirk product, very pleasurable experience each time.
Cheers, PeteJ

Rob Pulham - Don's coaches came on quite a bit over the weekend, to the degree that that BG is down to working from a check list of final details. - I will need to replace the lamp irons with something made of brass because the styrene ones are really vulnerable. Out of the 4 fitted one has come off completely and two more are bent and will snap off soon.

The all 3rd has it's roof cut to length and the floor in. Because the insides are effectively flat sided I have decided to add a false floor with the interior partitions and seats mounted upon it. I will then insert this from the top before fastening the roof on. Here's where we are so far. Although it's not visible in the photo the roof has it's canvas covering on too.

pat Buckley - Rob,i too had similar problems with the lamp iron being vunerable as i do not have a layout but have to use test tracks and they suffered from the frequent handling.I solved the problem for a long time by simply not fitting them ! but a couple of years ago i came across some etched ones that i keep for when i start my rake of mainline Gresleys that are waiting.I will dig them out and try to figure out were i got them from i think i know but the name eludes me at the mo.Will get back to you and put a photo on as well.As they say watch this space !
Pat.

PeteJ - Rob hi,It seems clear you build floor upwards, how do you keep the roof on?
PeteJ

Pat Buckley - Pete, as someone who has built an awfull lot of Kirk kits i find the best way is to make the floor detatchable with two self tappers at the ends into Plastic brackets on the coach ends.the roofs are permanently attached which stops the corners and ends lifting.I have used the permanent floor fitting and used tubing araldited to the roof with a nut soldered to the other end and a bolt through the floor into the tube.I have two like that at the mo that i got on ebay and had to modify to get the roofs to fit properly.Rob i think uses a different method and i am sure he will post and show it.
Rob,the photos show the lamp iron bits.they are from CRT kits.

Pat Buckley - Petej,have just photod the two types of roof and floor fitting. the first two photos are of a brake third inside the end you can see the former that is stuck to the end with the little black dot that is the tip of the self tapper.next is the underside with the tapper offset to clear the Kaydee mounting bolt.the third shows the ebay got removable roof modified with my method. the nut on the bolt that goes through the floor is to ajust to stop the roof being pulled down too far and distorting.Any questions feel free to ask.will try and put all photos together but not sure if i can !

Pat RobPulham - Hi Pat/Pete,
I must confess that I just glue to roofs on when all is complete and I have tested that the glazing is secure. Pat, is the pillar not visible through the windows or do you put in a toilet compartment? - The all 3rd doesn't have any toilet compartments so if I did the same it would be very visible.

Pat Buckley - Rob it is going in the middle of the first compartment at each end of the coach.The coach is a 52'6“ mainline corridor and its not possible to get the post in the loos as they ar not on the center line.i hope that with a touch of grey or a light coluor they will not be noticeable through the windows.the thing to bear in mind is that these coaches -a brake third and an all third - are both a rescue mission after being bodged by the original builder.the paint job was good on bothe thats why i got them but the internals and underframes were awfull and the photos carefully concealed the fact on the auction site.The roofs were held on with short csk wood screws filled and painted over.I did make two or more like this when i first started doing them and quickly changed to the removable floor method after realising that the kirk roofs allways warp and will not sit right if removable.Its not too difficult to make the floor removable you only need two self tappers as seen in my photo and it is an easy job to get inside when my overscale finger pushes a window in.I now use canopy glue to put widows in its much stronger !
Pat.

PeteJ - Rob, All power to your elbow in terms of confidence regarding glazing fixing. I would respectfully suggest that access to the inside to effect repairs to same is a necessity. What would you do in the event of glazing 'failure'?

PeteJ

RobPulham - Hi Pete, I had a very interesting time with a piece of cotton and some PVA. Admittedly it was on a brake so only had top lights and I do hear what you say with regard to the all 3rd

Pat Buckley - Rob,Its not very difficult to make a removable floor.If you follow Ians method of using the strip supplied on the inside to strengthen them all you have to do is glue plaststruct L shape to the ends with an extra layer for the self tapper to bite in - see my photo of the brake third - and drill the holes for the self tappers.you only need two set diagonally to hold it all together. if you remove the coupling hooks you can lift the floor out without removing the bogies “simples” done over 50 coaches like that inc a Quint set.
Pat.
should have said the strip only needs to be 10 mm deep-or a bit less if you want.

RobPulham - Hi Pat,Unfortunately for this build I have already glued the floor in so I will need to devise another method of making the roof removable. I have been having a few thoughts on it over the weekend and I might use a similar solution to yours.

I got a little more done on the All 3rd this weekend. - Sole bars, footsteps, battery boxes and queen posts all got fitted. I also did a bit more work on fitting the roof of the BG but there's nothing really to see. I also got the mounting brackets fitted on the dynamo but I forgot to bring it home for photos (not that it looks any different to the one that I did for the BG to be fair).

This last weekend saw a little more progress on the Kirk coaches.
The seating is assembled for the all third and the roof made ready to fit. Conversations on a few forums around how to attach the roof, have had the side effect of making me think about fitting passengers (which neither Don or I had considered/discussed). Due to me having already glued the floor in ( I won't do that on future builds) I was exploring unobtrusive ways that I might make the roof removable. Having consulted Don who agreed that we should make provision for the fitting of passengers. - Albeit not that many due to the decline of passengers using the line in Don's modelled period. I was still mulling over various ways of fixing the roof when I realised that the roof ends don't quite match the profile of the ends of the coach. This is due to the way that Ian makes them by vacuum forming. When I say don't quite fit I am sure that the discrepancy will be taken up by gluing the roofs on as originally planned. But if I attempted to screw them on in any way, I would be left with an unsightly gap at either end.
A bit more head scratching and looking at the way that windows fit I decided that I could make it so that the windows cannot be dislodged by handling (which was another fear of gluing the roof on) and that if I fitted some passengers before gluing the roof down, it would mean that Don didn't need to gain access to do it later. I had some Slaters seated passengers to hand and they provided a welcome distraction and rekindling of interest, which I have to confess due to pressures at work was waning a little.

While the painting of said passengers (particularly the faces) isn't as good as some on here, I am pleased with how they have come out and they will certainly pass muster inside the gloomy interior of the coach once matt varnished. If you wonder why they are sat above the box instead of on it, that's because I have inserted a length of plastic rod to enable me to hold them while painting and it will help in making them securely fastened to the seats when fitted.

Pat Buckley - Rob,it is quite usual to have to either par down the side part of the coach end or slightly raise the center of the coach end.this is -i think- because the roof profile is slightly different on each one due to the way they are produced. its fairly rare not to have to.it allso has to be done on the corridor coaches as well but not so much.if the floor is removable you can fix the roof on and then turn the coach upside down an dribble in some araldite that can be smoothed down on the outside to act as a filler and firmly hold the roof on.Keep up the good work they look good.I was just thinking i ought to put some photos and text on here when i restart my Quad set.I have only done the mods to the brake coach thats needed before assembly of the sides.Its a fair bit of cutting and re making to get the last compartement and brake compartement correct.
Pat.

Rob,re looking at the photos i think your seats are way too low.It may be the angle that the photos taken from but they should be higher i think.will go and measure up tomorrow and let you know.
Pat.

RobPulham - Thanks Pat, I have to admit that the height is determined by nothing more scientific than the bottom of the seat moulding sitting on a strip of 1mm styrene which makes up a false floor so that I can remove them for painting.

Pat Buckley - Rob,just had a look at the various part built kirk kits and allthough they are mainline Thompson/Gresley coaches they should be allmost the same and all the seats that i have premade up are 11.5mm from the floor to the top of the seat cushion.The seats i have are slightly different to yours but the basic ht should be roughly the same.I seem to remember a long while ago trying to find out exactly how high the seats were and came up with a figure of 20ins from the floor to the seat cushion.I have ridden in the restored Quad set and the beautiful Gresley stock on the Severn Valley and they seem to be about the same measurement which corresponds to the 11.5mm of what i have allready made.My suburban and Quint stock is up in the loft at the mo so cannt get at it to check if the same as the mainline but there cannt be all that much difference in seat ht.Will seeif i can find out any more.By the way i have checked all my LNER Isinglass drawings and the seat ht is not shown.
Pat

RobPulham - Cheers Pat,I will measure these and see what the difference is.

In between building bit's on the B16 I have also been slowly but surely painting the BG

I still need to glaze it and fit the guards handrails etc. but it getting there.

Still ticking along with these, the seats are now at the right height. Next job a coat of paint and fitting the passengers. The 52' BG is now complete and just needs the roof fastening down. The all 3rd has been progressing too, we now have passengers and a start on the paint work - the plan is to print our some partition tops with carriage prints and possible the mirrors in place - I may end up with plan B for the mirrors which would be to use the Cameo to cut them from foil.

Raymond Walley - Is it an optical illusion or are the people somewhat underscale?

RobPulham - I have a whole load of Slaters plastic figures that are too small as well they are 1/45 i think
Hi Pat,
They are indeed Slaters figures, I hadn't realised that they are underscale. I haven't used them before but they were what I had to hand when Don and I realised that we hadn't discussed passengers or any provision to fit them. I am sure that they won't be that noticeable in the gloom which is just as well because they are well and truly stuck to the seats now - I didn't want any risk of them coming loose when the roof is fitted.

Stuart1600 - I had always been led to believe that Slater's figures were 1:48, which would account for them being so obviously under-nourished; and more than a few experienced modellers have said that they always use them in coaches because often the internal floor height can be a bit higher than correct scale, and the Slater's figures with their “short” legs don't cause problems!
Stuart

Jim Snowdon - The only time you can see the passengers is when they are next to the windows, and then, you can't see their lower parts anyway.
Jim

RobPulham - Picking up after Guildex and despite going out to play at Locomotion on both Saturday PM and sunday AM I managed to get a fair bit further on the All 3rd Brake tell tale and associated bits and pieces Roof vents marked out and added, I also added the V Hangers underneath but found that I had left the dynamo and the vac cylinder castings behind so I couldn't go any further with them. I even made a jig and a start on the grab handles before running out of rod - more in Wakefield but it's not much good there

A weekend in, spent modelling has seen the All 3rd well on it's way to completion. I even managed to do a bit more on my own non corridor parcels van. Progress on the latter included ripping off the dynamo to make up more prototypical hanging frame similar to Don's BG and All 3rd All that's left to do (unless I find something else is fit the turnbuckles and trussing and the vacuum and steam heat pipes before it hit's the paint shop in anger

Pat Buckley - Rob, excellent stuff its going to look great.Where did you get the castings for the Queenposts from ? they look so much better than the normal kit offerings.
Pat.

RobPulham - Hi Pat, The queen post castings and the turnbuckles that go with them are Just Like the Real Thing. The castings come with 4 Queen Posts but I cut out the centre two for this coach.

Quentin - Invertrain also market LWB queen posts and turnbuckles from the Sparmac range.
Quentin

RobPulham - Having got Don's All 3rd well on it's way and despite spending quite a bit of Saturday stripping off the roof canvas and filling in the holes for the wrongly placed roof vents with stubbs of styrene rod. I also managed to do a bit more at my stalled Kirk parcels van. my last job the previous weekend was to break off the dynamo which in my earlier builds I had stuck onto a fabricated I beam. Now that I have done a more realistic job for Don's coaches it seemed only fair to do the same for me so I knocked up the mounting brackets and stuck them on.

This is Don's roof awaiting the roof vents mounting in the right place, just perched on my parcels van for the moment. I managed to rescue the destination board brackets and reinstate them on the new re-canvassed roof. It's also now sporting hinges and door handles etc.

RobPulham - One of the jobs that I did over the last week was to knock up some partition details for the All 3rd. The carriage prints are Chris's paintings shrunk to fit and the mirrors are also one of Chris's ideas. I had tried to print them using a grey but they didn't come out that well. The next thought was to use baking foil cut on the Silhouette but my concern was that they would damage easily while removing them from the cutting mat. Chris suggested that I try the foil lined plastic sachets that family sized pack of nuts come in. She duly cut one up and gave it a wash (this is from a bag of Cashew Nuts, other nuts are available of course). I quick visit to Inkscape drew me some circles and ovals (I need ovals for my D114 when I get to it). It almost took more time sticking the two small sheets of plastic to the cutting mat than it did to cut them out - a single cut with the blade set at 1 was enough. A better idea when they were removed from the mat They look the part when attached to the partition - the printed efforts gave a location point if nothing else A couple more for the carriage ends.

Bob Alderman - Rob, Back on figures. I have used the Slater's ones in three four wheelers. Once installed they are visible only in outline, the colour of the costumes cannot be easily made out. Which suggests painting them black would suffice.
The coach windows are not particularly dirty!
Bob

RobPulham - Thanks Bob, That's useful to know for future builds.

Gilham22930 - Stunning work Rob !!!!!

PeteJ - Hi Rob, really enjoying all your work and it would be most useful to see images/details of your grab (commode) handle jig. Also, re the painted seating I have minimally dry brush stippled the basic seat colours with a cream paint which improves the appearance no end, notwithstanding availability of printed patterns
Cheers, PeteJ

RobPulham - Hi Pete, It will be a couple more weeks before I am in the vicinity of the jig but I will do a drawing to illustrate what it looks like. It's an offcut of 40 thou plasticard with a hole and then a rectangular block of 40 thou stuck on and another hole drilled at the other end and then joined with the edge to make a slot. Edited to add the drawing. You bend the wire with a short L and then insert the leg of the L in the hole. Then bend around the block and back into the slot. In reality I bend with the pliers but use the Jig to check the sizing.

Graham H - Hi Rob Have a look at this little gadget I pickup a few years ago at Halifax I think. The numbers on the the etched lines are millimeters to give you an aid to the length required for you coach or loco hand rails.

If you look at Eileens Emporium/Bill Bedford page 2 you'll see it for sale. Graham.

RobPulham - Hi Graham, I have one of those (one of the few things that I kept from my 4mm days), which I do use for straight hand rails but these are the grab handle type so it was simpler to knock up a simple jig to make sure that they were all the same size - that and the BB handrail jig was at home in Wakefield at the time:

Sandell10466 - Graham and Rob, Found my rough and ready jig for coach grab handles out and took a photo or 3. Some in the background need a bit of tidying up. Using 0.5mm brass wire at present for I Kirk Gresley coaches, but think I started with 0.7 which is a bit hard on the jig. Sorry about the focus on the middle photo but I think you can see the general idea. Jig is scrap etch Nickel silver.

Mike S

RobPulham - Now I do like that Mike, a simple solution that I will shamelessly plagiarise when I get to my Quad art set. Thanks for sharing it.

At the beginning of each session on the B16 recently I have sprayed the All 3rd in either Carmine, matt varnish or lastly masked up and sprayed the black. The paints were both from the Vallejo Model colour range - Carmine and Black. The varnish used was Ronseal water based let down with Vallejo thinners. I also made a start on adding the teak varnish to my Kirk Parcels van.

Again the finish is Vallejo Model Colour Orange covered by (so far) 7 coats of Ronseal waterbased Teak varnish applied by brush so not let down.

PeteJ - Rob (and others)
I am finding all input on this thread very interesting and informative as I am in the long term throes of building 6 by 51ft Kirk Gresley's all at once. My advice would therefore be never take on more than two at a time as the repetition becomes soul destroying! Just take bogie footboards for example, 72 to do. I am more of a 'general appearance' modeller than Rob seems to be particularly with regard to the underframe details e.g I am happy to use Kirk bogies and dynamo without Rob's excellent appendages and use the plastic 'rod' truss rods doubled up each side. I make my own vacuum cylinders from wooden dowel mounted on brass rod and the activating arm from 2 bits of brass tube, one part split with a disc and both flattened and soldered where the 2 parts meet. Not a purist!
The battery boxes are suitable wooden blocks with the Kirk faces added but I do add the angle iron supports like Rob from plastic angle including the one up the centre all of which is most obvious on the real thing. End details very similar to Rob's methods plasticard and brass rod, scratch electrical connectors using a leather punch for the boss and wire and plasticard for the holder. I do buy sprung buffers from Northants Model Supplies. Again for operational purposes I fit single link couplings, these coaches will run, not stand and be admired. The next step here is vacuum pipes which I will fashion from electrical flex copper wire and oil filter gasket spring.

The roof is uncovered in tissue and will be painted but I do buy cast ventilators. I have built these 'roof off' and will fix them on with 2 short brass rod sections through the ends into a plastic flange set inside the roof ends to cantrail level. To access the inside in the event a window pops the short rods will push through and off comes the roof.

The bodies were made in accordance with Ian Kirk's suggested method (other than upside down, roof on) using plasticard strip backing for the panels. As I have progressed I have found this strip to be most inconvenient when it comes to detailing the interior, as all inserts, such as seating, with or without a sub floor has to be narrow enough to fit inside it which results in seat ends on view through the windows, most annoying, and unprototypical. Next time I will make up the sides without the strips and attach the bottom edge to a slightly thicker floor, which will also obviate the plastic seating I use from appearing too low, as mentioned in a Guild Magazine article recently. I primed the sides before continuing but stupidly constructed and detailed the insides before final colour spraying. Masking up will be more problematic.

The compartment walls are stuck to sides and floor and seating pre painted appropriately and dry stippled in a lighter colour to simulate pattern before gluing in. The above seat panel is covered by a printed compartment detail obtained free gratis from RM web, adjusted for size on my printer and I have added pictures from commercially available source. As the print has a mirror frame on it I cut out mirror from shiny metal sticky tape and added same. Lack of cutting accuracy is negated by the wooden frame surround so long as the mirror is smaller. (if you know what I mean) It looks much better than it sounds.

Glazing, handrails (using a jig as per this thread, thank you) and final painting to be done. Once complete I will attempt posting photo's of these vehicles.

Cheers, PeteJ

P.S. It's not that I can't afford all the cast parts, I resent paying if a cheaper alternative albeit not quite 'finescale' can be found.

RobPulham- Although I have been concentrating on the B16 I have done a little on the All 3rd by picking out the handles in brass. I popped all the bits together to see how it looked - it's still just plonked on the bogies with the roof just resting in place. I hope that I might get the transfers on this weekend.

PeteJ - Hi all,
Following on from my 'missive' a few days ago I have had a go at vacuum pipes, tall ones for these short Gresley's. Ingredients;-

• 1mm outside diameter brass tube (to take 0.7mm wire)
• 0.7mm brass wire
• Tight Wound Spring 1.62mmod x 0.82mmid x 1metre (from Amberly Services- oil filter oil seal spring)
• Soldering iron, solder and flux.

First cut tube 40mm length, then cut wire 65mm length, cut spring 17.5mm. Place wire in tube so surplus 25mm wire is all out one end, then lightly solder wire in both ends of tube. Using stout pliers bend flush end tight 90 degrees for about 10mm (elbow below buffer beam) The 0.7mm wire acts like a plumbing pipe spring, maintaining the exterior integrity/shape of the tube. Bend the other end of the tube right over as per a vacuum pipe for 4-5mm, making sure the bend is in the right plane for the previous 90 degree elbow . Slide 17.5mm wire spring over 0.7mm wire 'extension' right up to start of tube and then bend to shape. I used a proprietary vacuum pipe as a template. Overlap spare 0.7mm wire onto vertical tube side at appropriate height and solder in place. Snip off spare wire. Or alternatively cut spare wire accordingly and appropriately butt solder to tube at correct height. I am really pleased with the results, not perhaps for the purist, but in the murky depths between black ended and weathered coaches, very suitable.

To fit to the coach I kinked the top of the pipe with pliers as per the real thing and drilled a hole in the coach end to accommodate a small brass split pin round the top vertical part of the tube. Where the elbow sits on the buffer beam I filed a slot with a small triangular file to hold pipe in place whilst supergluing. Batch building then ensued quite speedily.Now how much are those pairs of lost wax pipes?

As requested, here are photo's to assist (hopefully).
PeteJ

RobPulham - Superb Pete,Thanks for sharing the method in such detail.

PeteJ - Oct 15, 2017 at 12:39 PM
Thanks for the 'thumbs up' people. Best to mention small round nosed pliers to obtain the tight curve at the top of the item.

Comparing the finished article with cast ones, particularly white metal, these are very strong! Also apologies for the state of the sample coach, bought part built and 'painted' It will come good. Those close ups are very unforgiving.
Cheers, PeteJ

RobPulham - Although I have only one photo, the All 3rd is nearing completion. The transfers are on, it's glazed and the roof vents have been re-fitted - right number in the right place…. I left it on Sunday night with the glue in the glazing drying so unless I discover anything that I have missed I should have it all put together next weekend.

PeteJ - Pictures of coach interior work as mentioned.

RobPulham - A concerted effort this weekend has seen the All 3rd nearing completion. Still to do are fitting the roof and having seen the photos sticking part of one of the rain strips down.

Having chosen to ultimately glue the roof on last I had, had some debate about how windows that became dislodged through handling would be replaced. After a bit of head scratching I came up with a cunning plan. Each window is an individual pane which is glued into the rebate inside the coach but I have also added a strip of secondary glazing which rests on the strip that strengthens the sides and runs the full length of the coach. It's is held in place by the edges of the compartments which I filed down to allow the glazing strip to fit. This will prevent the individual panes from being dislodged.

To fit the no smoking transfers I made up a little jig from a piece of 20thou styrene which was the width of the window from the outside. I measured half way up the window and marked the styrene. I then added 1mm and marked it again. After measuring the with of the transfer I subtracted this from the total width and divided the remainder by two. I measured the result from each edge and marked a vertical line from the high line to the middle line at each side and then cut the styrene out leaving me with a rectangle of styrene with a notch cut out that centres the transfer in the middle of the window both vertically and horizontally

Jim Snowdon - It's turned out nicely, although the rather ex-works finish could do with toning down a bit in recognition of the effects of weather and operation (which may be on the to-do list anyway). A strange effect, visible only in the broadside views, is that the passengers are sitting a bit too bolt upright, with daylight between them and the seat backs. It isn't a natural pose, but it may be dictated by the design of the figures.
Jim

RobPulham - Oct 30, 2017 at 5:22 PM
Hi Jim,\
Don will be doing any weathering that he desires to match his other coaches but I know what you mean I have ideas as to how I might do it. Regarding the people, we had a discussion about it back up the thread, they are Slaters figures and were very much a late addition being all I had to hand when we realised that we hadn't discussed it.

Kirk10784 - Hi,
The figures might be more correct than you think. Remember that this livery means probably the 1950s. Everything was so manky. I recall my late Victorian Grandmother sitting so that the least part of her was in contact with the seats which admittedly had probably not been cleaned since before the war. She was probably indicating distaste too that we had not gone First Class where she would have got a white headrest and a better class of dirt. Seriously though a fine bit of modelling Rob.
best wishes,
Ian

RobPulham - I am back on the trail of Kirk coach builds, this time it's an all 3rd/brake 3rd twin set (Diags 105/125). It's another for Don, (the gent that I built the last two for) and this time he has gone for using the supplied Kirk bogies so I thought that I might upgrade them a little. First I added some of my Silhouette cut leaf springs and then looked to make some springs for the bolsters. I am aware that others have used 2ba screws to do represent the bolsters springs but to my mind the coils are a little too sharp in profile so I wound some 3mm styrene rod with 0.8/mm styrene rod to make the springs. I also added the spring carriers and in hindsight I should have added the springs before sticking the carriers to the bogies because it's going to be interesting getting the springs in position now. I have also assembled the sides but didn't take photos of them.

Bob Alderman - When making the springs how did you bend and coil the rod without it breaking when adhesive added?
Bob

RobPulham- Hi Bob,
I put the 3mm rod into a pin vice and then tucked one end of the 0.8mm rod down the gap in the jaws of the pin vice. Then I applied humbrol poly cement to about 5-8mm of the outside of the 3mm rod starting about 5mm from the jaws of the pin vice. Then I started to wind the 08mm rod around quite slowly so that the adhesive had a small amount of time to start to soften it. As I reached the end of the area of glue I paused and glued another similar length and carried on until the 0.8mm rod was all wound around. I have used a similar technique to get flat strip to bend into quite tight curves without breaking in the past. I did have a couple of breakages in the first couple of goes but after that I managed to get the timing right. It's a fine line between getting the rod to bend and the adhesive drying before the rod has stuck.

DavidL - I wonder if heat (say from a decorators hot air gun) would be better. Not enough to melt it, just enough to make it softer.
David

Campbell20781 - My technique for the springs was to use single core telephone wire wound around a suitable diameter drill. This keeps the shape and has a hollow interior without any further persuasion.
Regards.

RobPulham - Hi Bill,
Had I been doing this on a brass model I would have done exactly as you suggest (although I have some rolls of soft brass beading wire which I would have used). I am always a little wary when sticking metal to styrene so I do try to avoid it where I can, making the spring from styrene in this instance worked better in terms of using the same adhesive for all the parts.

When fellow modellers came along to see me when I was demoing at Pontefract show, the parts that I was cutting were some brakes for my Kirk coach bogies Once glued together (5 layers) they came out looking like this. Apologies for the poor photo, white on white isn't the best combination The demo must have been well received because I have also been asked to demo at Telford as well as Doncaster this year. Not much modelling got done last week due to having a busy week compounded by minor surgery, but over the weekend the Mojo returned and I made progress on the twinset. The first bogie now has it's bolster springs an I have the parts prepared to fit to the other two. I did end up having to remove the bolster frame to fit the springs so a lesson learned. I also managed to get three of the ends attached to their respective sides. The fourth one needs cutting down for the narrower brake end.

Buckley10339 - Rob,i think i mentioned this to you before in one of my posts but just in case i didnt make sure that the articulation joint gives you 10mm between the coaches -no less. With 1mm of roof overhang that will give you 8mm for the coaches to articulate round Peco 6ft radius points and you can get a couple of fag papers in between the corners of the roofs when they go through the point.It is 3mm over scale but it means the coaches will go round curves.I found out the hard way that a scale 7mm was not enough when building my Quintruplet set.
Pat.

Viney20841 - Pat, Is the articulation joint a commercial or scratchbuilt unit.
Regards,
Kerry

Buckley10339 - Kerry,its scratchbuilt.i took two bits of the black plasticard the Ian supplies for the floor 10mm square then matched them up so they were identical and drilled a hole for a 8ba nut and bolt 5mm from the edge.After checking that the two were 10mm overall when put together i enlaged the hole to put a bit of brass tube in to act as a strengthener.the two bit were then trimmed so the outer edge is tapered to the outer bit were the tube is with about 2mm of the plastic away from the tube.The bolt is held in a bit of tube in the bogie and the nut you see is used to adjust the height of the coaches to match the height on the ends with the bogies - a straight edge held allong the roofs tells you when all is level.Will take some photos and post later today and allso the part made ones i am doing for my Kirk Quadruplet set that i am building.Its quite eay to do just a bit of plastic and some brass tube that stops the 8ba bolt from wearing the plastic hole oval.
Pat.

Kerry, here are the photos of the articulation unit.the first are showing the ones on the twin set and you can see the brass bush thats inserted in the plastic to stop the screw thread wearing the hole bigger.the other photos show the three units for the quad set i am doing with an untrimed one on the left and the other two ready to be trimed to size and shape.The real things are like a caravan towbar and a socket that drops on it and they are massive castings ((i assume) bolted to the coach buffer beam.You can see the two ends of the quad brake coach with the articulation end buffer beam given a thin layer of plasticard to cover up the buffer holes and coupling slot ready to glue the unit to it.This is plenty strong enough - my quint set has been running over 20 years with an identical set up and no failures and the quint set is heavy !
let me know if you need any more info.

Viney20841 - Pat, thanks for the photos. I shall make similar connection for my own GNR art set and also a set of LMS art coaches. I am surprised that there is not a “cup and cone” lost wax or whitemetal unit similar to the prototype available in 7mm from a trade supplier.
Kerry ( Queensland )

RobPulham - Brilliant, thanks again Pat, I was thinking of creating something in brass but I much prefer to use the same media where possible so I shall follow your lead.

This weekend saw much progress on the Twin set.
Timely posting of a photo of the brake end allowed me to cut the windows while the end was in the flat and then both coach bodies were assembled. I also blanked of the inner ends by filling the holes for the buffers and coupling hooks and then overlaid a piece of 20 thou to form a solid foundation for the shared bogie pivot. Lastly I made a start of building up/detailing the battery boxes (although there are five I only need four for this job). Next I need to cut out the end straps with the silhouette because I have run out

More done on the bogies over the weekend.
The brakes and yokes are now fitted to all three bogies. not exactly like the real thing but will pass muster hidden away underneath the coach.

If you are wondering why the rod between the two yokes? It's to hold the brakes away from the tyres to prevent friction. They just need guard irons over the yokes and they are well on their way.

Buckley10339 - Hello Rob,your build is looking good.However i have just discovered a slight problem that i think extends to all Ians kits.Whilst doing the 6 compartment brake third got at Kettering this afternoon i was having a bit of a problem getting the bogie mounting casting to fit centrally so the sole bars were set in equally on the coach floor.After a lot of headscratching i measured the moulding and found one side was approx 1.4mm longer than the other thus making the solebars fit differently when butted up to them.This problem has bugged me for years and i have allways put it down to ham fisted marking out but its the moulding thats wrong. I have only measured the two in that kit and they are the same but have yet to check the Quad art kit to see if they are the same. So beware Rob the mouldings will need a packing strip adding to the short side at whatever thickness is needed otherwise you will fall victim to the unequal solebars !
Pat.

RobPulham - Hi Pat, It's not something that I have noticed on my other builds, I will measure the bodies that I have constructed when I go up next weekend. You have me intrigued:)

Buckley10339 - Rob,have just measured up my 4 spare ones in my kirk spares box and they are all of different lengths each side.the long side is identical in all four and the short side vary from .5mm to allmost 1mm.why the other one was 1.4 mm is a mystery it may have been a one off as the ones from my Quad art set are the same as my four spares.The moulding i am doing to use on the brake end bogie has had to have another .5mm plastic strip added to make it equal in addition to the 1mm strip to make it wide enough to let the Queenposts sit in between the solebars. To sum up it looks like every one of the mouldings will need to be measured and a suitable thickness of plastic added to the short side to make every thing equal and that the large discrepancy of the first one i found was a one off - i hope !

Pat.

RobPulham - Thanks Pat, I am still not 100 % sure I understand what you are saying but I will do a bit of measuring at the weekend. Have a nice break.

RobPulham - My recent lathe purchase has started me thinking about making the most of some of my other tools. I used to do quite a bit of woodworking until we converted our garage and I no longer had the room for many of the woodworking tools so I sold them.

What I kept were, chop saw, Router/router table and a linisher. The Router/router table, until a couple of weeks ago was in my loft so not accessible for regular use and my linisher while slightly more accessible by being under my workbench had only seen the light of day once in the last 5 years. Prompted by getting something out of the loft I decided to get the Router/router table and the linisher out and take them to the other house where I have a dry brick built garage that's alarmed. Fast forward to this weekend and I decided to start making use of them so used the linisher to prepare all the partitions for the twin set. Each one needed to be profiles to fit the vacuum formed Kirk roof and it certainly made a much easier job of the 17 or so partitions plus the coach ends.

I reckon what I achieved today would have taken at least a couple of weekend's work to achieve filing by hand.

This weekend saw the previous weekends efforts all come together.

The plan is to make the roofs removable by screwing into the base of the seats that are attached to the roof.

Although modelling time has been limited recently I have made a little more progress with the twins. I was a bit remiss in not cutting out for the ducket while I had the sides in the flat but I managed.

We now have one of my silhouette cut duckets fitted. This in fact the second attempt because I was a bit heavy handed with polystyrene cement last weekend and the first effort just melted away - this one is stuck more patiently with limonene. I had also prepped some scrap etch for the mounting brackets for the dynamos last weekend and I got those fitted too although from the photo one of them need a minor tweak to it's shape.

End of thread