GAUGE O GUILD

GWR Queen 2-2-2

Prepared by Tommy Day

Originator Les Turnbull

Thread and Forum Title GWR Queen 2-2-2

Thread start date Sep 6, 2017 For full Forum thread click here: - https://www.gaugeoguild.com/xenforo/index.php?threads/gwr-queen-2-2-2.755/

Continuing my excursion into building of GWR single wheelers I have made a start on my latest project which is a “Queen” class 2-2-2 of Victorian vintage. The model is a kit from the Scorpio Models Classics range. I have several of this range under my belt so I am fairly confident of an enjoyable build.

As usual I have started on the tender, which is an Armstrong 1800 gallon capacity. I have however opted to build a 2500 gallon capacity version with the deep well tanks. These did not have a pick up arrangement. I have attached photographs showing the compensation arrangements , which are hidden within the Well tank and further photographs showing the completed chassis with tank in position.

Turnbull21603 - Sep 11, 2017 at 4:22 PM

Further progress has been achieved and the tender chassis is now substantially completed. So far the build has been without problems, all parts fitting well. The brake shoes are an innovation to me being folded from a brass etch, in five overlays, rather the normal Scorpio white metal ones. Attached are progress photographs.

One casting, the brake linkage to standard casting, is missing but has been procured. Les

Turnbull21603 - Sep 14, 2017 at 6:22 PM

The footplate is now completed together with the outside frames rivet detailing, buffer beam and drag beam. The buffer holes and coupling slot were enlarged prior to fitting of the buffer beam, as I find it easier to do while the buffer beam is not attached to the frames.

Having reconsidered possibly of shorts involving the inside brake rigging I have removed the pull rods and laminated them to the appropriate outside parts. This will avoid contact with the back of the wheels and also strengthens the outside brake rigging which can be distorted by mishandling when servicing the wheels. I have also strengthened the cross stretchers as I find that 0.7 mm wire does not look the part. This being the second of these tenders that I have built I will skip the next stage in the instructions, which is the fitting of springs and axle boxes, until after painting. The main reason is the lining of the tender body, which is in two panels on each side, the lower lines being partially obscured by the springs. Next operation will be to complete the superstructure. Les

Turnbull21603 - Sep 16, 2017 at 12:22 PM

The superstructure is now well under way. Attached photographs show the bare tank temporarily in placed. The final photographs show the completed tank with outer overlay sweated to the tank.

Les

Turnbull21603 - Sep 22, 2017 at 4:07 PM

With the main superstucture and chassis substantially completed, the “window dressing” is finished.

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( I use the term “window dressing” as whilst the bulk of the assembly is substantially completed an equal time, or possibly longer, will be required to complete the detailing, which does not show as much in the way of progress made.) Attached are some photos of progress on the tender to date, the superstructure mated to the underframe and detailing commenced. Les

Turnbull21603 - Sep 23, 2017 at 9:41 PM

Another couple of days and the tender will be completed apart from the springs. This particular pattern, designed by Joseph Armstrong, had the springs above the footplate. As the side livery consists of two panels, the finish, including liver, has to be complete before the springs are fitted. I am attaching a photograph of a similar tender which shows the completed liver and springs in place.

Les

Turnbull21603 - Sep 23, 2017 at 11:17 PM

I have another single, an “Achilles” which is completed, however I am having problems balancing the weight to maximise the adhesion of the driving axle. The “Queen” that I am currently building will be fitted with four wheel drive, which was considered for the “Achilles” but it was not a practical proposition.( See ‘Achilles for a garden railway’ H & T) All being well I will start on the locomotive in the coming week. Les

Turnbull21603 - Sep 25, 2017 at 2:57 PM

The tender is now completed, apart from springs as previously mentioned these will be fitted and brakes and rigging after final painting. Attached are photographs of the finished tender in the raw and in grey primer.

Les

Turnbull21603 - Oct 4, 2017 at 2:44 PM

The locomotive chassis has been substantially completed and motor and four wheel drive gearbox trial fitted. The fitting of a Canon 1833 required some modifications to both of the motor mountings as well as the motor casing. The Scorpio special drive gear box for the singles, both Queen and Achilles, is designed around a Mashima 1833 which is now becoming hard to come by at a sensible price. I had opted for a Canon motor as my experience with models having a driving wheel(s) larger than a scaled 5’ 8” require more torque when starting using a single stage gearbox which the Mashima does not have. The Canon motor, unlike the Mashima, has mounting tapped holes on only one axis which coincides with the electrical connections. This in turn requires the mounting axis to be turned through a right angle to allow the electrical connections to clear the rear motor mounting plate. Due to the difference in dimensions between the motors the main mounting plate required opening out to slot the motor into this mounting. As the Canon does not have a raised boss between the electrical connections it was necessary to make up a new bearing to reduce the opening in the mounting plate to 2mm, this being the notional dimension of the shaft. Attached are photographs showing the four wheel drive in place.

The next stage of the chassis is to fit the replica inside motion, springs and brakes. Les

Neill15028 - Oct 4, 2017 at 3:29 PM

Intriguing approach - driving the two wheels - I'm assuming the gear ratios are different to cope with the different wheel diameters. Where there convenient ratios or did you make the gears? Steve

Neill15028 - Oct 4, 2017 at 3:38 PM Ah! - can see the different gearing now - I always assumed they were single driven axles - still intrigued none the less!

Turnbull21603 - Oct 4, 2017 at 4:30 PM

Hello Steve, This is an arrangement devised and marketed by Scorpio Models as an optional extra to their “Achilles” and “ Queen class kits. The gear rations are 40:1 on the driving axle and 24:1 on the carrying axle. I have also built a single, by another kit manufacturer, which drives only on the driving axle. Ultimately I want to determine the capabilities of either system. With driving on the single axle there is a possibility of wheel slip if the balance of the axle weights is not correct. Currently My Achilles is on one side waiting to be correctly weighted and balanced. As a point of interest the GWR singles did suffer from wheel slip when starting a train, something they overcame in the Churward designed locomotives. Les

Turnbull21603 - Oct 4, 2017 at 4:33 PM

Hello Neill, I know of several successful single wheelers that drive on the main driving axle only. The use of four wheel drive would appear to be a simple solution to wheel slip, however “the proof of the pudding” as they say. Time will tell. Les

ChrisSimpson - Oct 4, 2017 at 4:47 PM

I built the Scorpio Achilles and they do indeed offer the 4 wheel drive. The compensation beams are provided with different pivot points dependent on whether the builder chooses 4 wheel drive or driving on the main drivers only. I bought the 4 wheel drive assembly, but in the end I opted to drive only using the main drivers. Before I chose this option I consulted someone who has successfully built singles using only 2 wheel drive. I also reckoned that, with the amount of lateral tolerance between 32 mm track and the wheels, and the possibility that at least one wheel might be in contact with the track on a part of it's cone which is rotating at a slightly different linear speed than needed, there might be a scrubbing. In practice it might not be an issue, and in the end my loco has adequate (but not exceptional) pulling performance. Chris

StephDale - Oct 4, 2017 at 5:10 PM

Les, In the interests of science (and never being one who can resist a few minutes with a spreadsheet) what are the wheel diameters of the driving a driven/trailing wheels, please? It'd be interesting to know whether Chris is right on the issue of 'scrubbing'. Cheers, Steph

Morgan17782 - Oct 4, 2017 at 5:21 PM

Hello About 25 years ago Tim Hughes, Meteor Models built me an LNWR 2-2-2 Lady of the Lake. I don't have the loco now but if I remember correctly the drive was on the 'proper' wheels the motor being in the firebox. The rear wheels were on a rocker point thus giving 3 point suspension with the weight balance towards the drivers. The front was very lightly spring, just enough to keep the wheels in contact with the track but not carry any significant weight. It would easily pull 6 brass 6 wheel coaches & a couple of vans round 5ft curves. Regards Allen Morgan

Stelfox22047 - Oct 4, 2017 at 5:49 PM

Les, With weight in the ashpan and firebox it should be able to pull a whole plate of rice pudding and not just the skin. Malcolm

ChrisSimpson - Oct 4, 2017 at 6:25 PM

Hi Steph. 7'9“ and 4'7” according to the Scorpio kit instructions. I have to be right though regardless of any calculations. If you take a single axle with two wheels, running along a straight length of track, because the wheel tyres are conical, if the wheelset moves to one side then one wheel will be running on the larger dia of the cone, and the other will be running on the smaller dia. Thus although the rotational speed will be the same, the wheels will be fighting each other for grip. In ideal circumstances the wheels should settle in a stable balanced position, but in a model there will be forces which influence the wheelset alignment. Look forward to other opinions. Regards, Chris

Turnbull21603 - Oct 4, 2017 at 7:58 PM

Hi Steph, The “Queen” is a 2-2-2, which I am currently building. Wheels as follows front carrier 4.13 feet , driving 7.0 feet, rear carrier 4.13 feet. Wheel base 8’ 6” + 9’ 0” The Achilles, which Chris has., is 4-2-2 Wheels as follows bogie 4.0 feet, driving 7.75 feet, rear carrier 4.58 feet. Wheel base 7’ 0” + 7’ 6” + 9’ 0” I also have an Achilles which happily negotiates 6’ 0” radius curves, without scrubbing. This has been built with a rigid, beam compensated chassis. Les

There is a long discussion on the thread at this point on driving two axles with different wheel sizes. See the forum thread for these details.

Turnbull21603 - Oct 7, 2017 at 9:48 AM

I am attaching photographs of the compensation beam arrangement, having stripped the motor/ gearbox for further work in dressing the chassis. The pivot point is approximately central, in the horizontal plane, between the driven axles. From the side view a small brass tag, one of a pair, which is part of the lower motor mounting, is shown. These tags limit the vertical movement of the compensation beams to about 1mm of travel. Also in this view can be seen the rocking arrangement for the front axle, again with a similar limit in vertical travel.

I do not have an indoor layout, but run my stock on a small test track in the garden. At other times my locomotives visit other garden railways. Because of this my stock is weighted to a minimum of 2 grams for each millimetre of length between the vehicle headstocks, which is twice the recommended applied weight given in the GOG Technical Manual. From these weight constraints it is necessary that my locomotives have both good adhesion and good pulling power. My test load, which is a rake of six GWR short coaches, is in the order of 2.1 kilos, which is comfortably handled by my saddle tanks, for which purpose they were built. I trust that this will clarify my requirements and arrangements in connection with my single wheelers. The weights involved definitely preclude the fitting of the power train in a tender as the necessary weight, to achieve traction, would be extremely difficult to install, plus the driving of small wheels, rather than the locomotive wheels could also become problematic. Les

StephDale - Oct 7, 2017 at 10:15 AM

Les, Many thanks for taking the time to arrange and post the photos and your description. I can see now that the gearbox assembly is rigid in that the two driven assemblies can't move independently; some 'warp' in the assembly would be necessary to give true 3- point compensation. However, its a tricky problem to solve when one needs to maintain gear tolerances. The front axle rocking is a nice touch as it'll help you get most of the driven wheels down on the track, although on other than glass-flat trackwork there won't be more than three of the driven wheels on the track at any one time. Unless all that weight helps the gearbox frame flex, I suppose! Cheers, Steph

Turnbull21603 - Oct 7, 2017 at 10:40 AM

A few months ago Steph I started an Achilles 4-2-2, a DJB Engineering kit, which I finally finished before I started on the Queen. It was a pig to build but perseverance got it built in the end. This first single was the reason behind fabricating the axle weighing apparatus, as I had seen a similar model, which was built to a very high standard, aesthetically, but had no pulling power whatsoever. I did consider building in a similar four wheel drive arrangement but decided that the amount of surgery required to fit this arrangement, could cause problems as the ash pan, which has a floor, acts as the compensation beam, so a single wheel drive was installed on the driving axle. To date, dispite juggling with the weight distribution, I have not managed to achieve what I set out to do. The Queen is being built for a comparative trial matched against the Achilles, once I am happy with same. It, a bit like G J Churchward with his comparative trials with the French compounds. I am already drawing up plans for converting the Achilles to four wheel drive, provided the Queen pulls the previously mentioned test load. Les

Turnbull21603 - Oct 10, 2017 at 9:39 PM

The chassis is now substantially completed with brake hangers and shoes set aside for painting before fitting with the rigging. The chassis has both sets of mudguards soldered into place and the dummy, white metal, inside motion in position and partially removable. The piston rods and guides are a permanent fixture, as is the valve gear. The remaining parts, which are located on the driving axle are removable by removal of the axle. The valve gear has been shortened to accommodate the drive on the drive axle. The eccentrics have been omitted and the levers shortened. Attached are two progress photographs showing the dummy inside motion in place.

—————————————————————————————————————— Turnbull21603 - Oct 12, 2017 at 6:20 PM

Over the last two sessions I have cracked on with the locomotive body, having completed and detailed the bulk of the footplate yesterday and continued today with the inside cylinders/ front mounting arrangement,plus small front wheel splashes and large splashes to the driving wheels.

The chassis is retained, at the smokebox end by two 4mm long pins, the instructions suggest from 0.9 mm brass wire. I have used two 16BA Cheesehead brass screws soldered into the cylinder front plate and cut to the required length, which I beleive to be a stronger arrangement. As an aside, for brake hanger locating pins I normally substitute 14BA steel Cheesehead screws rather than brass wire. This a more substantial option as the heads are positioned between the main frames and compensation beams and are not prone to coming loose. A small amount of filling was required at the joint between the curved footplate and the large splashes sides. The front of the footplate is open and shows the front of the cylinders and valves, which is very typical of broad gauge locomotive design. I will be taking the Queen to the Bury St. Edmunds event on Sunday as a work in progress. I hope to see some of you there. Les

Turnbull21603 - Oct 14, 2017 at 5:33 PM

A little more progress with the cab now fitted into position. The photographs show how neatly the motor and gearbox assembly will fit within the fire box.

Les

ChrisSimpson - Oct 14, 2017 at 6:33 PM

Les, I don't know if this will apply to your build, but when I built the Dean Single I found that the spectacles were very slightly too low in that they were overlapped slightly by the firebox. I had to make a new cab front panel with the spectacles about 1mm higher. There must be similarities in the two kits. I don't have a close up photo of the area, but my 1mm was just enough to get the spectacles in the right place.

Chris

Turnbull21603 - Oct 14, 2017 at 6:40 PM

Chris, I have had similar problems with other kits, however I am not expecting one this time as there is a choice of cab fronts in the kit and I have used the appropriate one for the period. I had the same with a Standard Goods kit and again had a choice of cab fronts. I find that Scorpio kits give plenty of options and it is just a matter of making a choice of era/ rebuild and sticking with it. I am not expecting problems, but thanks for the thought. Les

Turnbull21603 - Oct 14, 2017 at 9:03 PM

Chris, my dislexia strikes again. I miss read your posting. I too have built an Achilles, but not by Scorpio. Mine had the same problem, which I feel is a mistake by the designer in relation to the R1 boiler. As you said the cab front was out in respect to the level of the spectacles, and also the cab sides. I resolved the problem by affine (adding?) 1mm to both sides and front to resolve the problem. The additional metal was released and the resulting depressions filled and sanded back flush. Les

Turnbull21603 - Oct 18, 2017 at 6:59 PM

The boiler has been completed together with fire box and smoke box, this sub assembly is ready for attaching to the footplate.

The project has reached the 97.5% completed stage, the remaining 2.5%, as in every project, will be the most time consuming involving adding all of the details and installing the electrics. Attached are the latest photographs. Les

Blackstoat - Oct 18, 2017 at 10:52 PM

Looks good Les. Any chance you could post a few picks of your 14ba brake hanger arrangement for us learners? Thanks Andy ==== Turnbull21603 - Oct 18, 2017 at 11:41 PM

Unfortunately not at present, however I can explain how it is done. In my experience the kits that I have built have small holes through the chassis for taking a 0.7 mm wire to suspend the brake hangers. I have also found that if you are using compensation beams these wire have to be cut off flush to the inside of the chassis to allow the compensation to move freely. To cut back the wire leaves the soldered to potentially fail. My way of overcoming this potential problem is to open out the hole to allow the insertion of a 14BA x half inch long Cheesehead steel screw, from the inside of the chassis. A nut is then tightened to the screw on the outside and finally a dab of solder applied to the screw head to avoid any loosening. This could also be applied to the nut, it is preferential, but must solidly retain the screw. The choice of steel is because a brass screw of this size is easily damaged and broken, caused by handling during building as no protection is available until the footplate is finally joined to the chassis, I hope this is understandable as an operation and the reasoning behind the procedure. Les PS you may wish to use this method when you build your Buffalo

Blackstoat - Oct 19, 2017 at 7:26 AM

Thanks Les Do you tap the brake hanger if its cast, or just solder it?

Turnbull21603 - Oct 19, 2017 at 8:47 AM

Andy, The actual brake hangers are a loose fit on the 14BA screw, being retained in place by the valance of the footplate. This allows the brake hangers to swing clear of the wheels when the brake pull rods are removed from the bottom stretchers. There are occasions when it is necessary to remove the wheels for extended maintenance/cleaning &c, therefore it is a good idea to arrange for the brake gear to be able to clear the wheels without total removal. Les

Jim Snowdon - Oct 19, 2017 at 9:05 AM

I have found that 12BA works just as well, with the advantage of being a bit less delicate. Then again, I would normally use 1mm wire when using that method; 0.7 is a bit fine for comfort. Looking at the Queen, which is coming along nicely, one thing that stood out, literally, were the splashers behind the wheels. These look as if the designer has set them where the prototype should be, without adjusting them for our under width wheels (S7 modellers ignore this). As a suggestion, it would look better if you were able to move them in a bit, nearer to the face of the wheels. Jim

Turnbull21603 - Oct 19, 2017 at 9:29 AM

Thanks for your comments Jim. The mudguards are fitted to a predetermined positions which are marked on the chassis side frames. I have just looked at the model and would confirm that there is about 1mm clearance between the wheel flange and the return of the mudguard. I am attaching a photograph of the underside, which should show the proximity of the wheel flanges to the mudguards.

Jim Snowdon - Oct 19, 2017 at 12:34 PM

Thank you, but I was referring to the lateral clearance between the face of the wheel and the front of the mudguard, which seems fairly generous from the pictures. Jim

Turnbull21603 - Oct 19, 2017 at 6:57 PM

Yes Jim I am inclined to agree with you. This may be a visual effect because of the camera angle however. The internal dimension of the chassis is 25mm between the frames, which gives maximum side play and it is possible that this may be needed to clear a long 6 foot radius. My locomotives only run outdoors and my test track does have a 6 foot radius which is a compound equalling 270 degrees which certainly tests the amount of side play to the fullest extent. While, as I said, I agree with you I feel that it is better to be safe than sorry. Les

Turnbull21603 - Oct 23, 2017 at 6:24 PM

The Queen body is now ready for a prime coat, having had a thorough washing and scrubbing with Cif. Attached photographs show the completed body.

Fitting of the smoke box door will be carried out after application of lead and wheel balancing weights. ( I have a small supply of the adhesive weights used to balance alloy wheels. These are extremely handy for adding weight to your models as they are either 5 gram or 10 gram in weight). While I still have to fit pick-ups to the chassis and fit brakes and pull rods to both locomotive and tender, apart from painting and final assembly the project is all over, bar the shouting. It has been a very pleasure build. I must now decide what to build next as I have some wagon kits and an S7 Broad Gauge Gooch Standard Goods awaiting starting. I will post photographs of the Queen class, which is 1128 “ Duke of York”, photograph of this locomotive appears in The Great Western at the Turn of the Century, an invaluable book for photographs of late Victorian locomotives. Les

Raymond Walley - Oct 24, 2017 at 10:19 AM

Looking very good Les, why not write it up for Gazette and reach a larger audience?

Robson17023 - Oct 24, 2017 at 10:41 AM

Hi Les I hate to be critical of someone who is a much better builder than me but the gap at the top of the splasher on the driving wheel needs closing up. Center photo shows it the most.

                           Eric r.

—————————————————————————————————————– Turnbull21603 - Oct 24, 2017 at 5:43 PM

Hello Eric, I am aware of the small gaps at the top of both driving wheel splashes. These will be filled after adding lead sheet to the inside of the boiler above these splashes. To seal these small gaps there is a need for support from the rear, hidden, side otherwise the filling, using gap filling solder, will fail. I trust that you realise that it is not always possible to get a perfect joint, particularly when butting a boiler to such large splashers. Les

Turnbull21603 - Oct 24, 2017 at 5:47 PM

That is an interesting thought Raymond. It’s a maybe, time allowing, although I would not know how to proceed to get an article published. Les

Raymond Walley - Oct 24, 2017 at 7:33 PM

Les, all you have to do at bottom is send a draft and pictures to the Editor and he will knock it into shape, alternatively I will be happy to do so for you as well

ChrisSimpson - Oct 24, 2017 at 7:48 PM

Les, when I built the Achilles loco, I did just what Raymond suggested, and my article was published. If I remember correctly it was February 2012…..how time flies. Then I noticed it had been described as a 4-4-2, rather than a 4-2-2. Chris ==== Turnbull21603 - Oct 24, 2017 at 9:35 PM

Thanks Raymond for your offer. When “Duke of York” is painted and lined out will be time enough to write the build up. Hopefully I am looking towards the February issue. Les ==== Turnbull21603 - Oct 24, 2017 at 9:37 PM

Hi Chris, I have read that article several times and the mistake regarding the wheel arrangement was the first thing that I noticed. However I found the article most informative. Les

====

VigorousKingslynn - Oct 24, 2017 at 11:07 PM

I was delighted to meet the Queen at Bury St Edmunds and I think an article in the Gazette would be interesting to many members especially if focusing on the way members have contributed their ideas and experiences to help the build progress. John Hobden ==== Turnbull21603 - Nov 21, 2017 at 3:38 PM

Finished in pre 1906 livery but as running c1899. Handrails remain to fit, but will be completed on receipt of material. .