Prepared by Jim Snowdon Originator Bob Alderman December 28, 2017

1. Bob Alderman, Dec 28, 2017
As I am no longer able to use metal easily I have been planning to use plasticard for a loco and its tender chassis’. ( I can work it as if were metal)
The upper works will be in plasticard anyway; the shape of the loco lends itself to this material. If the chassis were in metal I would solder two pieces together and cut out as one. This is not possible in plasticard as any bonding makes two into one.
What would the membership suggest as a means of temporarily joining the two pieces together? Note, when joined I need to work on them on a flat surface so bolts or screws are not acceptable. The parts will be clamped to a flat surface enabling me to use my one working hand.
Also I will not consider any other material, eg copperclad, for issues with waste in my working environment. Your thoughts.
Bob

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2. Chris Simpson, Dec 28, 2017
Leave a planned tab at both ends and both sides near the middle in easily accessible places. Carefully stick the two sides together using only the tabs. That should be possible with care. Cut everything out, with all holes etc, and as a final act cut the tabs off.
Good luck with plasticard, I am not a fan, but Paul Heard did a fantastic job on his Plasticard Duchess.
Chris

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3. Les Turnbull, Dec 28, 2017
Bob,
Have you considered double sided tape. I have used this in connection with building an Ian Kirk coach to hold the prices in place before solvent welding. It was no thicker than Sellotape but did the job.
Unfortunately it was several years ago and I cannot remember the trade name of the product, perhaps another forum member could advise.
Best of luck with this new project.
Les

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4. Eric Robson, Dec 28, 2017
Hi Bob you could use some 6mm mdf larger than the chassis and recess the surface where the bolt heads are. Leave enough on the ends to clamp it down to your work bench.
Long may you carry on modelling.
Eric r.

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5. Eric Robson, Dec 28, 2017
Have you considered double sided tape. I have used this in connection with building an Ian Kirk coach to hold the prices in place before solvent welding. It was no thicker than Sellotape but did the job. Unfortunately it was several years ago and I cannot remember the trade name of the product, perhaps another forum member could advise.
Les, when I worked for a living we used to use Scotch tape double sided. now I find the Poundland double sided works ok probably no good long term but good for temp. jobs.
I do find it messy to remove from plasticard.
Eric r.

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6. Les Turnbull, Dec 28, 2017
Eric Robson said: ↑
Have you considered double sided tape. I have used this in connection with building an Ian Kirk coach to hold the prices in place before solvent welding. It was no thicker than Sellotape but did the job.
Unfortunately it was several years ago and I cannot remember the trade name of the product, perhaps another forum member could advise.
Les, when I worked for a living we used to use Scotch tape double sided. now I find the Poundland double sided works ok probably no good long term but good for temp. jobs.
I do find it messy to remove from plasticard.
Eric r.
Have you tried methylated spirits Eric, or even one of the proprietary products for remove the residue from platers? Neat washing up liquid is also useful.
Les

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7. Brian Moakes, Dec 28, 2017
Hi Bob
I think that if I had to do it I would consider using ordinary decorating adhesive such as Polycell and some thin paper, i.e. newspaper that would easily soak water up the glue would soften to get the two apart. This is very similar to gluing two pieces of wood together to turn the best piece before separation. I have glued wood to metal like and then just forced the pieces apart after turning.
Brian

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8. Julian Evison, Dec 28, 2017
Bob,
Plasticard is my favourite building medium, so I will be really interested to see how you get on with it. I would tackle your problem by using really tiny dabs of glue at infrequent intervals which will hold the sheets together but can be prised apart later. The glue must be viscous so it doesn't spread. I tend to experiment on pieces of scrap card first in a situation like this and would try something like a viscous CA or Revell Contacta first.
Chris's idea of sacrificial tabs will give an even better result, but again it is important to use a viscous glue to prevent spreading to where you don't want it (all too easy with MEK or Plastic Weld).
Julian

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9. Brian Dale, Dec 28, 2017
Hi Bob.
Bad news that you can no longer use metal. Most of my builds owe more than a little to your advice, but I'll continue for as long as I can.
I've not tried it but I wonder whether a PVA glue might be sufficient to hold everything in place for the initial cutting stage? As you've shown previously that's an adhesive which can easily be separated afterwards and may (dependent on grade) be washed away with a water soak. I the concept of tabs too - my only concern with this approach may be that you don't know how far the adhesive has penetrated. I'll be fascinated to see your progress with this. I like Plasticard except for the static effect on the dust, so an advanced treatise on this will be fascinating.
Brian

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10. Len Jones, Dec 28, 2017
Bob good evening ,I have taped both sheets that I am cutting for “mirror image “ with masking tape from B&Q.in a couple of places.
You can mark out on it in pencil and I have found when cutting out the tape holds the Plastikard without movement . When I have cut the appropriate area I re tape and move on to the next ,doing like wise as I move along the sheets.

Len

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11. Graham Powell, Dec 28, 2017
Hi Bob,
Julian has the right idea. A thin film of adhesive round the edges will stick two pieces together and they can then be separated using a sharp knife. Rgds
Graham Powell

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12. Nick Lowe, Dec 28, 2017
Hello Bob. Bad news that you can no longer easily use metal. Not quite the answer that you may be looking for but if you can use a CAD programme what about drawing out the chassis and getting somebody such as York Model Making to laser cut the chassis members for you along with spacers. Just a thought.
Nick

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13. Bob Comerford, Dec 29, 2017
I normally do it with PVA but 3 or 4 very small blobs of one of the thicker varieties of plastic solvent works too. Adding some tabs to the frame cut-outs and only gluing them as suggested by Chris would be a good idea too. I use 60 thou for the chassis, see my thread for more details.
Cheers
Bob

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14. Doug Wardle20380, Dec 29, 2017
Perhaps a silhouette cutter may help?
I know Rob Pulham has one and has produced some fantastic work with it.

Doug

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15. Bob Alderman, Dec 29, 2017
Thank you All
The consensus seems to be double sided tape.
My thoughts were tending towards this.
More in a while… A pause for my lunch…
The small dots of adhesive have merit too. The worry here is they may affect surface finish.
I'm going for plasticard as I find it very easy to work with. All the structures I've made for various layouts have been made with it. I have my ways of working it.
The loco in question I have made before in the material, albeit 4mm scale. So I'm relatively familiar with its shapes and how to form them.
These days I'm a little more mechanised than then too.
The greatest issue will be working with 1 and 1/2 hands.
I have designed some aids to help me hold, just waiting for them to be made. You'd think that over Christmas people would have time on their hands…
I will have to call for help on the inevitable small screw/nut.
The build campaign has been planned as a “falling to sleep” exercise.
Bob

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16. David Atkinson, Dec 29, 2017
Eric Robson said:
Have you considered double sided tape. I have used this in connection with building an Ian Kirk coach to hold the prices in place before solvent welding. It was no thicker than Sellotape but did the job. Unfortunately it was several years ago and I cannot remember the trade name of the product, perhaps another forum member could advise.
Les, when I worked for a living we used to use Scotch tape double sided. now I find the Poundland double sided works ok probably no good long term but good for temp. jobs.
I do find it messy to remove from plasticard.
Eric r.

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Bob
Many years ago I asked a sales rep for something to remove the residue from sticky labels etc. that were stuck onto many items in industry. When the item arrived it was WD40. I queried this and was told to try it. Lo and behold it worked and will remove most residue from labels etc..
Apparently many people use WD40 as a lubricant. It isn't. It is a water dispersal initially, but as a by-product it is excellent for a variety of uses, of which gum residue removal is one.
David A

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17. David Davenport, Dec 29, 2017
Hi Bob
If I was anywhere near you I would be happy to help cut out a chassis to get over the first hurdle. Once that element is complete it would be the foundation for the rest of your work. Maybe the tape idea could work if you tape one end and work on the other. Then swap the tape over and do the other end. Wish you well with the project.
David

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18. Martin Long, Dec 29, 2017
Bob
Sorry to learn of your problems. I reckon a plasticard chassis should work well and certainly will be easy to manage. It strikes me as being more durable than cardboard and there again folk are using that successfully so what do I know!
Best of luck
Martin L

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19. Dave Haines, Dec 29, 2017
It might be worth trying Copydex Bob. A small dab squishes down to a very thin layer and holds plastic firmly. It can then be peeled apart and off quite easily and I've not noticed it attack plastics.
Dave Haines
(DaveScratch on the old forum)

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20. Bob Alderman, Dec 29, 2017
At some time in 2018 I'll report back once the build commences.
I'm trying to be strict with myself and not start anything new until the last one is finished. And that will be the Midland/LMS 0-4-4 tank I covered in the old Forum. This was displaced by my last (final) commission, now complete. Just a few “small” bits to add and that's done. A friend will paint it for me.
Though, obviously, this hasn't stopped me thinking about and planning the next plasticard project.
Happy New Year.
Bob

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21. Bob Comerford, Dec 29, 2017
The blobs of styrene cement have no effect on the visible surface finish as they are on the inside of the chassis. The PVA just washes off.
What ever works within your limitations Bob
I can't offer advice on keeping to planned schedule as I fail miserably regularly.
Cheers
Bob

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22. David Rae, Dec 29, 2017
Bob,
I know two modellers, Jim Read and John Foynes, who build locos and stock entirely in cardboard [including chassis] with very good results. Jim uses shellac to fix the card. Personally from preference I'd stick with plasticard or thick styrene sheet [which is different but harder to source].
I can relate to your condition as I fractured my right wrist [preferred hand] on ice in Canada three years ago, modelling was my therapy, though all I could cut was foamboard and thin wood. A micro layout project and new ideas on modelling materials came out of it. All power to your good hand.
David

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23. Eric Robson, Dec 30, 2017
Les Turnbull said:
Have you tried methylated spirits Eric, or even one of the propriety produces for remove the residue from platers? Neat washing up liquid is also useful.
Hi Les, I tend to work mainly in the house so I have to be careful what I use to clean things up with as my wife has a strong sense of smell and a delicate stomach. I will give washing up liquid a try as that doe's not bother her as long as I am washing the dishes lol.
Eric.

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24. Bob Comerford, Dec 30, 2017
Plasticard is just another name (probably Slaters) for high impact polystyrene sheet (HIPS). What we just call styrene for short.

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25. Allen Morgan, Dec 30, 2017
Hi Bob
A long time ago (back in the late 60s/early 70s when I knew him) member Tim Taylor was building complete locos and coaches from plastic sheet. A search in the Gazette index brought up a couple of items, one on locos being Vol 2 No 3. If memory serves me correctly he ran the axles directly in the thick or thickened locally, frames. I think his view was 'if it's good enough for the RTR manufacturers is good enough for me'. Might not work for high mileage and/or heavy loads but should be OK on your size layout.
Regards
Allen Morgan

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26. Bob Comerford, Dec 30, 2017
Allen, If you were to read my thread you would see that after the first two locos I built I discarded the bearings for exactly the same reasoning. The rest just run in holes in the 60 thou sheet frames.
Given my locos regularly run for circa 3 hour sessions I suspect that would constitute very high mileages and they are sometimes pulling heavy loads and none of them show any signs of excessive wear so far. My coaches are Australian 3-rail era construction so you would not want to drop one on your foot. :>)
Cheers
Bob

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27. Bob Alderman, Dec 31, 2017
Having purchased horn guides for the loco and tender for when it was going to be metal construction I intend to use them on the plasticard.
They will be bonded and likely bolted too.
Best adhesive for metal to plasticard? I'm swinging between a superglue and epoxy.
Bob

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28. Les Turnbull, Dec 31, 2017
Eric Robson said:
Hi Les, I tend to work mainly in the house so I have to be careful what I use to clean things up with as my wife has a strong sense of smell and a delicate stomach. I will give washing up liquid a try as that doe's not bother her as long as I am washing the dishes lol.
Eric.
I have the same problem Eric but it is mainly that my wife finds objectionable. As I work in my shed (workshop) I no longer have the probable. On the positive side I do manage to avoid decorating .
Les

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29. Les Turnbull, Dec 31, 2017
Bob Alderman said:
Having purchased horn guides for the loco and tender for when it was going to be metal construction I intend to use them on the plasticard.
They will be bonded and likely bolted too.
Best adhesive for metal to plasticard? I'm swinging between a superglue and epoxy.
Bob
I would go for Araldite but it takes six hours to harden and obviously parts bonded using this material should be clamped during this time period to avoid misalignment. The other thing to note, using epoxy resins, is that this material will not set correctly in temperature lower than six degrees centigrade.
Hope this helps.
Les

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30. Tim Birch, Dec 31, 2017
David Atkinson said:
Bob
Many years ago I asked a sales rep for something to remove the residue from sticky labels etc. that were stuck onto many items in industry. When the item arrived it was WD40. I queried this and was told to try it. Lo and behold it worked and will remove most residue from labels etc..
Apparently many people use WD40 as a lubricant. It isn't. It is a water dispersal initially, but as a by-product it is excellent for a variety of uses, of which gum residue removal is one.
David A
Another substance which is good for removing glue residue, such as that which is left by sticky labels, is a tiny squirt of aerosol furniture polish. It really cuts through the glue and does not damage the surface - I have even used it to remove the residue from book covers when a tenacious price label has been removed. Best wishes for 2018 to everyone on the forum.

Tim Birch

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31. Bob Alderman, Dec 31, 2017
Les Turnbull said:
I would go for Araldite but it takes six hours to harden and obviously parts bonded using this material should be clamped during this time period to avoid misalignment. The other thing to note, using epoxy resins, is that this material will not set correctly in temperature lower than six degrees centigrade.
Hope this helps.
Les
Les
I'm very familiar with epoxy adhesives coming from an industry that used them to construct major structural components e.g. rotor blades etc.
The radiator helps with the curing too.
Bob

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32. Les Turnbull, Dec 31, 2017
Bob Alderman said:
Les
I'm very familiar with epoxy adhesives coming from an industry that used them to construct major structural components e.g. rotor blades etc.
The radiator helps with the curing too.
Bob
Bob, with your familiarity with epoxy resin adhesives you are well ahead of me. Incidentally I use the top of the boiler rather than a radiator.
Les

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33. Nev Rossiter, Dec 31, 2017
I've built just about everything out of plasticard I call it styrene because that's what the plastic firm (and the Yanks!) where I buy it from in large sheets call it.
I've used most of the ideas that the blokes have put forward above and if you don't want free advice from the blokes here these two books are interesting but not necessary. The important thing is to keep going mate don't stop. Best regards Nev.

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34. John Greathead, Dec 31, 2017
Hi Bob, seasons greetings
How about 'Tacky Wax', it will give you the firm grip you need and can be removed with warm water giving you the 'temporary' fix you need, you can reposition at will, no residue or surface damage, just thoughts.
John,

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35. Steph Dale, Dec 31, 2017
Bob,
I'm sure you'll be fine using epoxy to stick the hornguides to styrene with all your experience. There are some very good grades available off the shelf these days.
As an aside to your build of a chassis in styrene, it's worth mentioning that split axles become an absolute synch with an electrically dead chassis. It may be easier than fiddling with conventional pick up arrangements. You'd need to allow for attaching the pick up wires to any fixed bearings before fitting them to the chassis though…
Steph

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36. Bob Alderman, Dec 31, 2017
Thanks
Nev, I've written my own book using styrene for construction! But thanks. John, What's Tacky Wax? New to me.
Steph, I was going to have split axle pick up in the original scheme of things but now there will be a non conducting chassis other forms can be used.
I'm fairly certain that splitting the axles is now beyond me anyway. But if you want to subcontract..?
Bob

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37. Steph Dale, Dec 31, 2017
Bob Alderman said:
Thanks
Nev, I've written my own book using styrene for construction! But thanks.
John, What's Tacky Wax? New to me.
Steph, I was going to have split axle pick up in the original scheme of things but now there will be a non conducting chassis other forms can be used.
I'm fairly certain that splitting the axles is now beyond me anyway. But if you want to subcontract..?
Bob
I'd be happy to. I reckon I probably owe you a favour
Steph

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38. John Greathead, Dec 31, 2017
Hi Bob,
Google or YouTube 'Tacky Wax' and it will show you the uses, just might fit the bill, its the fact that you want it to be temporary that gives it the 'plus', it has uses in the model railway world, the floor of Little Loco diesel is held in with it I think, it allows access and refitting, a sort of industrial snot (excuse my French) very versatile stuff.
If you are going to Bristol we will have a chat, there's some good idea's flowing. Best regards, John

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39. Bob Alderman, Jan 6, 2018
John
Pardon the delay, I had to be sure about getting to Bristol. I am. So will chat then about revolting stickiness.
Bob

End of thread