Draftsight Printing / LSWR Signal Box
From the forum in 2017
I wanted to build a LSWR Type 1 Signal Box, but after extensive research on the web and elsewhere I could not find a decent drawing (apart from Ground Level boxes) but loads of photos. I have Pryer's books on LSWR Boxes and Signalling. So after seeing a suggestion for Draftsight on this forum, I duly downloaded it and set to learning how to use it so I could create my own. The learning curve was very like getting to grips with Templot in that I found I had to serve my time understanding how it worked before I made much progress. Very frustrating to start with! I used the Draftsight tutorials, youtube video etc and eventually got there. I have even now knocked up a half decent first draft of a LSWR type 1 drawing but then I tried to print it to 1:43 scale !!!!!! After a load of false starts I eventually managed to print out from “Model Space” at 7mm:ft but just cannot work out how to set up a Sheet and Viewport to do the same; the Draftsight tutorial here
http://blog.draftsight.com/2017/04/04/printing-draftsight-part-3/
makes it sound dead easy…either I have lost the plot or it isn't so am hoping we have someone on the forum who can help………..please !
My drawing is drawn in the Model Space full size using ft/ inches.
I have set up a new sheet and when first opened it looks like this:
This is pretty small which makes me suspicious there is something wrong with the set up already. When I follow the instruction to Zoom to the scale I want ie Zoom>1/43xp, it gets even smaller:
So, I tried setting it at 1:1 and got this………
Which is more like it but I have no idea what the actual scale is , or what I am doing really !!!! Is there an expert or better user than me out there who can immediately see what needs to be done and can accelerate my capability and reduce my frustration please?
Eventually, I was hoping to post a thread on here showing how I created this drawing from a variety of information sources. (And how I found out that there is no such thing as a Standard LSWR Type 1 Signal Box although they look roughly the same !)
BrushType4 (Healey Pearce) - Aug 26, 2017 at 1:02 PM
You can send me the file and I'll sort into a scale PDF for you but I've no idea how to solve Draft-sight. I recommend Qcad as learning curve is very shallow and very easy to do complicated stuff.
SRSteve - Aug 26, 2017 at 4:33 PM
Healey, Many Thanks for your offer; I can actually get a 7mm scale print through printing direct from the “Model Space” which is direct from the drawing; However, this needs to be set up each time it's used. I should be able to set up “Sheets” which are fixed to give me the different views, front, rear etc etc and that is the issue which is perplexing me currently.
Drawing wise, I am pretty OK with Draftsight now, but will take a look at QCAd to see if it offers a simpler solution for the longer term
Chapman20842 - Aug 26, 2017 at 4:50 PM
You could select all and then scale the drawing to be 1/43rd. I tend to draw in scale (i.e full size for the 0 gauge model) rather than full size and then have to scale.
Hope that helps.
Davec
Evans22511 - Aug 26, 2017 at 8:03 PM
Interesting that all are concerned with drawing to scale and having problems.
Having used Auto Cad in the dim and distant past detailing structural steel work I now use Turbo cad (Auto Cad too expensive)
With both systems I have always drawn full size whether it be a small angle bracket or a general arrangement of a large steel structure.
This is what I do
Open up a newdrawing sheet and, say drawing a signal box, draw a vertical line and offset this line by the overall width of the signal box - say 6000 mm. Zoom all and the drawing sheet will then show both the vertical lines. Draw a horizontal line between the two vertical lines. Off set this line by the height of the signal box and you have the outline, as a rectangle, of the signal box.
Carry on offsetting, trimming, extending and so on
until you have the signal box complete. One can then draw the stairs, end elevations and so on.
Now set up the text size and the dimension limits and style. Dimension the drawing adding text as required.
You can now print the drawing and you have your signal box.
At no time has any part of the drawing been scaled and all the dimensions will enable the box to be made.
Hope this helps
Mike
Stewart Ingram - Aug 26, 2017 at 11:48 PM
Steve.
I have been retired for 5 years now so I hope my memory is true, unfortunately my experience is with AutoCAD but they are all similar so I hope this may help.
Wise move to draw full size in “Model Space” always easier.
Set up as many “Paper Space” sheets as you feel you need.
Set the sheet size according to your printer (A4 = 297 x 210 etc)
Open each sheet and create a “viewport” to the maximum size your printer can actually print.
Select the viewport and shift to “Model Space”, scale it at 1:43.5.
Move the main drawing around in the Viewport (move only, no zooms) to get the view you want, switch back to “Paper Space”
Save and repeat for each sheet.
Print each sheet in Paper Space at a scale of 1:1
Stewart
VigorousKingslynn (John Hobden) - Aug 27, 2017 at 10:19 AM
Like Mike and Stewart I draw everything full size. That is industry standard. I can then scale the print to any scale. I always stay in model space as I often need different paper sizes. My way of setting paper sizes and scales is to use File - print configuration manager - new. You can then set a named routine with printer type (e.g. pdf writer, Epson etc) paper size and scale. I used Autocad professionally for 10 years till I semi-retired and changed from XP to W10 which would not run my version of Autocad. Autocad wanted silly money to upgrade and so, at Steph's suggestion I went to Draftsight. All CAD software takes a lot of learning if you want the full features but I found it worth persevering when I found I was one of the last still using a pen. All the Guild Exhibition Managers are now using Draftsight which means we can exchange files easily and the electricians can import floor plans etc. The layers can be locked, hidden or shown to give tables plans, electrics plans etc.
John Hobden
PS
Steve, I forgot to say have a look at Rob Pulham's thread on using the silhouette cutter to cut out parts from your drawing.
BrushType4 - Aug 27, 2017 at 11:31 AM
Its interesting that some of you draw full size and then scale back for printing. I use my drawings for laser cutting and so I always draw at scale size so I can adjust minimum thickness for example window bars as I go. If I worked at full size, I would potentially need to redraw these areas that would be too thin for the cutter to sensibly manage. However, Qcad and I'm sure other packages do as well, allows me to add the dimensions in scale feet and inches so if I'm working from plans I can double check back to full sizes.
SRSteve - Aug 27, 2017 at 11:36 AM
Many Thanks for all the replies:
I am delighted to see that my decision to draw full scale was a good one, apart from being able to then convert drawings easily to any scale, I was collecting dimensions from many sources, including actual measurements, scaling from photos, dimensions from similar drawings etc and using the full scale dimensions saved an awful lot of calculations!
I had realised though that I need to allow for the printer not being 100% accurate to the digital drawing (Templot has a printer calibration tool which does this for you).
The advice has helped me work out what I need to do, I also found a property to “Lock” the Viewpoint which prevents inadvertant re-zooming or panning from the desired view and scale; I think this is probably my last main learning point (famous last words!) and I am fully set up to continue using Draftsight for future drawings.
I took a very quick look at QCAD as suggested, from the screenshots it does not look all that different from Draftsight (but I guess a lot of the AutoCAD type tools are very similar these days); It costs 30 euros, not a tremendous amount, but not free like the non Pro version of Draftsight
In constructing my drawing I had followed the advice from Mike, in fact I created an “Alignment” Layer which had lines along all the key dimensions (such as baseline, brickwork height, boarding height etc, which was used to ensure exact consistent between different elevations etc. This was simply hidden once it was no longer needed.
I did see some of the threads on the Silhouette cutters which were very interesting, in fact I think it was there I picked up the recommendation for Draftsight. However, I do not have access to one, so probably will have to resort to the standard steel rule and scalpel, although a decision on whether to include the LSWR valences may sway on how successful I think I might be in doing these manually if I cannot find a reasonable priced trade option. Many of the valances were removed when the external boarding was added to the frame in the late 1800's
So many thanks, I am hoping to have time to post a thread describing how I created the drawing and then maybe describe how I build it. I have built few buildings so will probably need some help there too….especially those windows !
Rusty - Aug 27, 2017 at 12:41 PM
I think you'll find that QCAD is free, the 30 euros is for the Professional add on but the community edition is free to use. If you download QCAD then the pro add on is active for the first 15 minutes. The only real issue is that you can't create new layers once the pro addon is disabled. So just restart the program and create a new layer in the first 15 minutes.
Stewart Ingram - Aug 27, 2017 at 12:42 PM
Hi Healey
Drawings for paper printing are a different thing to drawings for laser cutting or CAD/CAM use and “full size” usually relates to the size of the finished product.
I guess it makes more sense when the final object is “real life full size” rather than 7mm scale model.
The main point of using Model/Paper space was to be able to draw something once, in full size, in Model Space and be able to quickly produce as many views and prints in various scales, both larger and smaller, from the one master drawing, as is necessary to produce the finished item.
It makes even more sense when working in 3D and wanting to produce 2D views for printing but that is way off topic.
As you say, when drawing for Laser Cutting the drawing has to be exactly what the laser is going to cut, I did use my own drawings and a laser cutting service to produce a lot of the fittings for my own layout and it worked very well, but looking at the superb quality of your product range you certainly don't need any comments from me.
Keep up the good work.
I forgot so Edited to add … By working this way any changes in the one “master” drawing in model space are automatically shown in all “paper space” copies.
It also reduces errors as there is only one copy of the actual drawing.
Stewart
LSWRArthur - Aug 27, 2017 at 1:02 PM
Hello John,
I do not know if this will be of any help, but I have now almost finished a model of Chard Junction signal box - ground standing, not integrated into the platform.
I did all my own component drawings for this from photos and from general information in C. A Pryer's book and then had the windows (which will slide) 3D printed (Shapeways).
The stonework, roof, sides, valance, etc were laser cut. (Completely mad, but I traced over the photo so that the stones are as close to accurate as possible, at least on the front of the box).
Boarding was thin card.
Interior was purchased from Skytrex and the new interior from Severn Models looks good as well.
Chard Junction was a type 1 box, so not sure if my drawings (Acad) would be of use to you? I think you can still download a free viewer.
I can also export into .pdf.
Regards, Arthur
Evans22511 - Aug 27, 2017 at 3:26 PM
Steve
For your valences you might like to contact Laser Cut Railway Models tel 07917730171 or visit their web site
They produce station canopies with valences and may have something that fits the bill
Hope this helps
Mike
SRSteve - Aug 27, 2017 at 6:19 PM
Thanks for the tip about Laser Cut Models.
Arthur, I should have known that someone would be way ahead of me even if LSWR Type 1 Boxes are a bit of a niche. Your model looks great and if I end up with anything like it in a couple of months or two time I'll be very happy. Your model illustrates my earlier point about (Non) Standard Type 1 boxes; your windows at the front are 3 x 2, the ones on my draft drawing are 4 x 2 and there were others, the Horizontal boarding varied in width, sometimes it was vertical boarding and sometimes it was asbestos sheet…..and in one or two extreme cases it was all replaced with brickwork ! I think a lot of it was down to the whim of the local building contractor. The pointing on the chimney looks slightly dodgy in one or two places and I'd recommend re-pointing to avoid a surprise for the signalman !
In my drawing, without actual measurements I'd made some educated guesses about the various window timber sizes; did you have the actual sizes? If possible, I'd welcome a copy of your drawing (in .DXP would be ideal) so I can compare to my own. One incredibly kind chap from the Bideford Railway Heritage Centre took some photos for me and took some actual measurements of the Type 1 box at Bideford which went into my research file but there was an element of guesswork on what the measurements were precisely. My drawing isn't a specific prototype but is intended to be accurate and capture the spirit of boxes like Broad Clyst and a number of others. There are other preserved examples at Instow, Romsey and on the Watercress Line.
I am just finishing off an ex NMD LSWR Type 4 Box kit (think Skytrex have this now); this has been a bit of nightmare for the money it cost; roof had to be re-made as it was too small, very significant trimming of walls and interior etc. etc Along the way I discovered that the internal walls were used in a number of the NMD box kits which probably explained a number of shortcomings. There was no way of getting into the locking room either !
LSWRArthur - Aug 27, 2017 at 7:24 PM
Hi Steve,
I'm going to sack my building contractor - I told him to re-point all those courses and he missed some. Can't get the workmen these days! Mind you it does prove how useful it is taking photos, because they show up all sorts of faults that you miss with the naked eye.
I could not find any drawings, so I scaled everything off various photos using the cornice bricks as a scale. I must admit I had a terrible job getting it all to work - the front was easy, but it took a lot to get the sides to fit. I am still not 100% sure that it is correct, but it look right and I think is reasonably close.
Do you have G. A Pryer's Signal Boxes of the L&SWR? There is a drawing of Broom Gates (LSWR Circle also hold this drawing) which might help as a check on some of your dimensions.
I do not have an overall drawing, just the components. I had thought of making it into a complete drawing for the SW Circle, but I have never found the time to do it.
I can export the components in Autocad 2007.dxf which a lot of other programmes seem able to read.
Unfortunately .DXP did not come up as an option.
Hope that might be of help
Arthur
SRSteve - Aug 27, 2017 at 7:52 PM
Thanks Arthur, sounds like we have followed very similar routes. My drawing is a mixture of measurements of the real thing, scaled dimensions from a number of photos and dimensions taken from drawings such as the Broom Gates one in Pryer's book which you mention. There is a “Creedyford” thread on RMWeb where the author has built a LSWR 1 box based on Crediton. There were a number of useful photos and a drawing but this is very feint and difficult to measure from.
I think your model is excellent and does really capture a LSWR Type 1 really well
BTW DXP is a special version of DXF invented by my clumsy thumbs!!!
VigorousKingslynn - Aug 27, 2017 at 9:12 PM
Lovely models Arthur and Steve. I have a soft spot for the LSWR having built my 4mm layout of Wherwell in the 70s. I built a couple of LSWR boxes in 4mm scale and then when the Pryer book came out I built a box and a signal (the bracket at Cosham shown in the book) in 1/24 scale (don't ask why I just wanted something bigger). Somewhere I have a LSWR drawing of the big Grateley box (where the low pressure system was tested before production) and keep meaning to pass it on to the SW Circle.
One warning about using DXF files rather than .dwg is that they can be much larger than .dwg which are usually surprisingly compact. I think it is because they are raster rather than vector.
If you send your .dwg file to York Model Making they will cut the windows from, I think mylar. Phil Healey Pearce can probably do it as well.
John Hobden
LSWRArthur - Sep 5, 2017 at 8:26 PM
Can I just add one comment on using full size drawings for laser cutting and model making. It is great as a starting point, but does not allow for cutting tolerances.
For example, on my signal box the corners mitre together (2 bricks one way and 2 bricks the other) and as you have spotted some of the courses need pointing. That is because the laser I use has a beam width of about 0.5mm, so I should really have moved each of the lines out by 0.2 - 0.25 mm to compensate. I didn't do it and had to use filler to put back the mortar, some of which I missed.
It is just worth thinking about when you scale down your drawings for laser cutting
Arthur
Rusty - Sep 5, 2017 at 10:15 PM
It depends how organised you can be. I've just started experimenting with onShape for drawing, with that you can define a variable to be used when dimensioning components, so you could have one for example called cuttingTolerance and use this in the drawings. You can then scale the drawing larger or smaller as desired and then change this cuttingTolerance variable to the size required. This would then apply to all dimensions that uses this variable. If you were really clever you could even calculate this dimension and include the scale in the calculation so that the spacing remains constant irrespective of scale.
Last posting Sept 5th 2017